Onscreen Critique, NOVEMBER 1 Watchtower, "When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed?"

by Doug Mason 42 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    JEFFRO: First, thanks again for your feedback. You first stated "comparison between verse 12 and 28 of Jeremiah 52." This didn't make sense though a point could be made for verse 29, so I presumed this was an error on your part, which you did seem to correct later when you said: " as is indicated in the interpolation at Jeremiah 52:29. This is called his 19th year in Jeremiah 52:12, because Jeremiah counts the accession year."

    So if I'm understanding you correctly you are associating the deportation in the 18th year as the same deportation in the 19th year, rather than two separate deportations in both the 18th and 19th years. This I follow, however, I see no mention of any deportation in year 19, that is, the year Jerusalem fell, except for king Zedekiah. Nebuchadnezzar killed a lot of people and then left the poor people in the land. So I'm interpreting this as a deportation in the 18th year while Jerusalem was under siege just as the Bible says. The 18th year deportation is an entirely separate event. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that there was a deportation in year 19. So you are confusing the two.

    Of note, you said: Again, Jeremiah isn't the author of Jeremiah 52:28-30. The final verse of chapter 51 indicates the end of that scroll by Jeremiah. Chapter 52 is mostly a copy from 2 Kings, but the 3 interpolated verses in question are from Babylonian sources and do not appear in 2 Kings.

    Per the "Insight Book" the scroll was a distinct work by Jeremiah but he himself added the other references. They note on page 32, Vol 2, "It may be that, although the scroll written by Baruch was the basis for a large part of the book, JEREMIAH afterward editged and arranged it when adding later sections."

    I'm not in a position to agree or disagree with the above, but my position is that those writings out of Babylon, like Jeremiah and possibly some supplemental unknown author, as well as Ezra, all consistently used the "accession year" system in reference to Nebuchadnezzar II. Again, it is not clear anyone except Zedekiah was deported in year 19 and thus the deportees mentioned deported in year 18 was on a different occasion. So verse 12 and verse 29 are not seen by me to be related at all.

    You said: "Again, the Bible is quite clear that Evil-Merodach was king when Jehoiachin was released, and says nothing of Nebuchadnezzar's reign extending that far."

    The critical reference here is the specificity of when Jehoiachin was released, as verse 31 says: "At length it came about in the thirty-seventh year of he exile of Jehoiachin the king of Judah, in the twelfth month, on the twenty-fifth day of the month, that Evil-merodach the king of Babylon, in the year of his becoming king, aised up the head of Jehoiachin."

    Under the accession year system the year Evil-merodach became king would be his accession year, thus the same year of the death of Nebuchadnezzar II. That being the case, the rule of Nebuchadnezzar would have been a period of 45 years rather than 43. Again, this is very simple math. Year 19 of Nebuchadnezzar corresponds to year 11 of Zedekiah, so 11 months of his first year were during the 9th year of Nebuchadnezzar. When the exile of Jehoiachin parallels this, his being deported on the very last day of year 8, then most of his exile, even into the 12th month, maintains an 8-year difference from the rule of Nebuchadnezzar. Thus year 37 of Jehoiachin in the last month of the year would be year 45 of Nebuchadnezzar II (37+8=45), the same year Evil-Merodach became king, which was during this accession year.

    LS

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    JEFFRO: Please note that Ant. 11.1.1 does not mention the desolation of the land. It simply notes those last deported would serve 70 years. The last deportation was in year 23 of Neb-II and so Ant. 11.1.1 is a direct contradiction to the revised Babylonian records.

    The revisions, though, have Josephus playing both sides of the fence. As you note in Against Apion 1:21 Josephus mentions fifty years of desolation. However just 2 paragraphs earlier, then reconfirms the 70 years:

    Against Apion 1:19 "And when he was relating the acts of this king, he describes to us how he sent his son Nabuchodonosor against Egypt, and against our land, with a great army, upon his being informed that they had revolted from him; and how, by that means, he subdued them all, and set our temple that was at Jerusalem on fire; nay, and removed our people entirely out of their own country, and transferred them to Babylon; when it so happened that our city was desolate during the interval of seventy years, until the days of Cyrus king of Persia."

    So you have an example of what happens when there is revisionism. Your choice here is to think that Josephus is contradicting himself, in one place saying seventy years and the other 50 years. But we don't have that luxury of presuming any contradiction but a cryptic reference. That is, the fifty-year reference is in relation to when Cyrus became king. Cyrus became king twice. Once when he ruled over the Persian half of the Medo-Persian empire and then again when he took over all of Persia after 20 years and started counting at year 1. So it happens, if you mark the years of desolation from the last deportation down to the first of Cyrus when he first became king, it is a period of 50 years. After his initial 20-year rule, when he became king over all of Persia, the period of desolation is 70 years. So the reference can be interpreted as a 50-year desolation down to the time Cyrus became king over Persia Minor, and a 70-year desolation when he became king over Greater Persia. Otherwise, Josephus is contradicting himself.

    In the meantime, it is interesting you didn't bring up both references, but only the 50-year reference. Josephus does not back down from the seventy years in his last work.

    You should also note that Josephus claims that Evil-Merodach ruled for 18 years! Ant. 10.11. "When Evil-Mcrodach was dead, after a reign of eighteen years, Niglissar his son took the government.."

    As I noted previously, the Bible's NB Period is 26 years longer than the revised popular history. We know Neb-II ruled for 45 years. We know Darius the Mede ruled for 6 years per the Bible. This takes care of 8 years. Nabonidus ruled for 19 years rather than 17 years by deduction. That is, if the 20-year rule of Cyrus began in year 6 of Nabonidus then he began to rule 5 years earlier, giving us a period of 25 years from the 1st of Nabonidus to the 1st of Cyrus when he became king over Babylon. Reduce this period by a 6-year rule of Darius the Mede and you have a 19-year rule for Nabonidus (25 - 6 = 19). So 2 years for Neb-II, 2 years for Nabonidus and 6 years for Darius the Mede account for 10 of the 26 years, leaving 16 missing years. If we apply those to Ewil-merodach, who per popular history only ruled for 2 years, then you have an 18-year rule for Ewil-Merodach, the precise number of years recorded by Josephus as above! So the presumption is that this 18-year rule for Ewil-Merodach mentioned by Josephus is relevant to the true timeline.

    LS

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    Doug,

    Thank you so much for your hard work! Point by point, the article is definitely shown to be wrong, both scripturally and historically. It is quite damning evidence.

    I'm so glad you quoted from David Brown's book referenced in Footnote 18, regarding, "...some of the signs for the names of the planets and their positions are unclear." Obviously from the references you've shown, that is definitely not the case. Even on the basis of one planet alone, the chronology is clearly established.

    Regarding the thought of the names and positions of planets being unclear, is there anywhere in pages 53 to 57 from where this is derived (even if out of context?)

    Thanks again!

    "Londo"

    P.S. This is my first post on the forum. :)

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard

    Doug,

    Wow! That's a lot of work. You have my thanks. I am downloading it for reading later!

    MeanMrMustard

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    You first stated "comparison between verse 12 and 28 of Jeremiah 52." This didn't make sense though a point could be made for verse 29, so I presumed this was an error on your part, which you did seem to correct later when you said: " as is indicated in the interpolation at Jeremiah 52:29. This is called his 19th year in Jeremiah 52:12, because Jeremiah counts the accession year."

    'Brilliant' deduction there, how you 'presumed' that a simple and obvious typo was indeed a mistake, and one that I had explicitly corrected. 'Amazing'. Sigh.

    So if I'm understanding you correctly you are associating the deportation in the 18th year as the same deportation in the 19th year, rather than two separate deportations in both the 18th and 19th years. This I follow, however, I see no mention of any deportation in year 19, that is, the year Jerusalem fell, except for king Zedekiah. Nebuchadnezzar killed a lot of people and then left the poor people in the land. So I'm interpreting this as a deportation in the 18th year while Jerusalem was under siege just as the Bible says. The 18th year deportation is an entirely separate event. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that there was a deportation in year 19. So you are confusing the two.

    A comparison of Jeremiah 52:28 with 2 Kings 24:12-14 further demonstrates that you are lying, because the 7th year (Babylonian reckoning - not counting accession year) is shown to be the same as the 8th year (2 Kings [attributed to Jeremiah] - counting accession year).

    I'm not 'confused'. You are wrong. 100% completely and utterly wrong. You create extra years in your haphazard chronology to try to fit your own agenda. It's plain dishonest, and based on your previous JCanon drivel, delusional as well. There is no point engaging you further.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Earlier in this thread, I said:

    Additionally, the introduction to Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews, Book X, states “Containing the interval of one hundred and eighty-two years and a half. From the captivity of the ten tribes to the first year of Cyrus.” This is only compatible with the destruction of Jerusalem falling in 587 BCE, and is not compatible with the additional years you would have us insert into the Neo-Babylonian period.

    Lars responded to this with:

    That's right. Nothing at all.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Regarding the thought of the names and positions of planets being unclear, is there anywhere in pages 53 to 57 from where this is derived (even if out of context?)

    Welcome Londo!

    P. 55-57 discusses the unambiguous, unshared "A-name" planets, which names are found on Diary VAT 4956 and subsequent diaries.

    P. 57 onwards discusses the other categories of planet names which can be more ambiguous as they are used in certain circumstances and can be shared with other planets. The examples given tend to come from the earlier Assyrian Astrological Reports and omen texts.

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    Thanks, AnnOMaly!

    As crazy as it sounds, this gives me incentive to get reinstated! Call it a "theocreatic" rescue mission. First, I need to be in a state where my loved ones will talk to me...then find a way to reveal this to them. The evidence, when I can present it, will have to be slam dunk and airtight. This seems to be.

  • iCeltic
    iCeltic

    This would take me years of constant study to be just slightly less confused than I am now.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    "...some of the signs for the names of the planets and their positions are unclear."

    Does the WT have any grounds that this the case for line 2?

    "Saturn was in front of the Swallow"

    What is the sign used here?

    Is the sign used here ever used for anything else?

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