Paul's Out-Of-Body Experience - How did we Miss This?

by wordfamine.com 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • wordfamine.com
    wordfamine.com

    The Watchtower teaches that there is no such thing as a spirit or soul leaving the body that can consciously experience anything in heaven unless you are annointed and you die. And the body certainly couldn't go in their view. However the apostle Paul plainly taught otherwise. I don't even remember this scripture when I was a witness. Anybody else deal with this one while you were active?

    2 Corinthians 12
    The Vision of Paradise

    1 It is doubtless [a] not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words,

  • ShadesofGrey
  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Good point.

  • tec
    tec

    I think they must just ignore that one.

    Peace,

    Tammy

  • Joey Jo-Jo
    Joey Jo-Jo

    as they did with a thousand of other passages.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    From an older post of mine:

    In 2 Corinthians and Philippians, the anthropological dichotomy is far more overt and Paul also describes the intermediate state between death and resurrection, although he does not use pneuma or psukhé to refer to what remains of a person after death. In 2 Corinthians 5:1, Paul refers to the body as "our earthly tabernacle dwelling (hé epigeios hémón oikia tou skénous)" and a few verses later states that "when we are in this tabernacle (hoi ontes en tó skénei), we groan out of being burdened (stenazomen baroumenoi), not because we wish to be unclothed (ekdusasthai) but to be clothed (ependusasthai) such that life would swallow up mortality" (v. 4). Paul does not use psukhé "soul" to refer to the internal essence but he does presume that there is an "I" (and collectively a "we" among his readership) that lives within the tabernacle of the body and that the body "clothes" -- and oppresses -- this internal person. Paul also used the clothing metaphor in 1 Corinthians; in the resurrection, "what is corruptible must put on (endusasthai) incorruption" (15:53), "mortality must put on immortality (endusétai tén athanasian)" (v. 54). This is explicit dualism -- the real person is contained and housed within the body. The author of 2 Peter mixes the clothing and housing metaphors as well, claiming that he was writing "while I am in this tabernacle (eimi en toutó tó skénwmati) ... knowing that shortly I must put off my tabernacle (apothesis tou skénómatos mou)", i.e. death was shortly at hand (1:13-14). Like Paul, the author here is picturing himself as the "I" housed and clothed by the tabernacle of his body. When Paul refers to his future death, he conceptualizes it as a departure of himself from his body into the presence of Christ:

    2 Corinthians 5:2-3, 6-8: "We long to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling (to oikétérion hémón to ex ouranou ependudasthai) because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked (gumnoi)....But we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body (endémountes en tó sómati) we are away from the Lord (ekémoumen apo tou kuriou). We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body (ekdémésai ek tou sómatos) and at home with the Lord (endémésai pros ton kurios)".
    Philippians 1:22-23: "If I am to go on living in flesh (to zén en sarki), this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ (ekhón eis to analusai kai sun khristó einai), which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the flesh (epimenein en té sarki)".

    Since the person is "away from the Lord" while in the body but "with the Lord" once he is out of the body, this text suggests that a Christian goes to be with Christ immediately at death. The text however is somewhat unclear whether one is "clothed with our heavenly dwelling" immediately at death or whether this waits until the resurrection; the reference to one being found "naked" (gumnos) may point to the latter. One also does not have to be dead to be "outside of the body (ektos tou sómatos)" as 2 Corinthians 12:2 suggests; one can depart from the body during a revelatory vision. The same concept appears in Philo of Alexandria who says that Moses was "made incorporeal (asómaton genomenon) in order to hear the heavenly music on Mount Sinai when he was in God's presence (De Somniis, 1.36). More to the point, the Ascension of Isaiah (second century AD) describes the prophet Isaiah receiving a vision and "he was taken by a trance and his mind was taken from this world (érthé ho dialogismos autou apo tou kosmou toutou)", whereupon he ascended the seven heavens and witnessed the glories of the divine presence; he was not dead however because "breath was still in him" (6:10-13). Then "his soul returned into his body (epestrepsen hé psukhé autou en tó sómati autou)" and he related his vision (6:16, 11:35). The metaphors of housing, clothing, and nakedness also appear in Greek and Hellenistic Jewish literature of the time. The Pythagoreans in particular referred to the body as a "tabernacle" or tent. Pseudo-Hippocrates (De Septimanis, 52.22) wrote that at death "the soul leaves the tabernacle of the body (apoleipousa hé psukhé to tou sómatos skénos)" and similar statements can be found in Timaeus Locrus 104D and Pseudo-Plato, Axiochus 366A. Another appearance of the expression in Jewish literature can be found in 4 Baruch 6:6 (first century AD) which refers to one's "fleshly dwelling" (to sarkikó oikó) as a "tabernacle" (to skénwmati) and when one dies God will "take you out of your tent (arei se ek tou skénómatos sou)". The thought in 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 is closest to that in Wisdom 9:15 (written by a Hellenistic Jew in the first century BC): "The perishable body weighs down the soul (phtharton sóma barunei psukhén), and this earthy tent burdens the thoughtful mind (brithei to geódes skénos noun poluphrontida)". Compare with Plato, Phaedo 81C where the physical body is said to be baru "heavy", embrithes "burdensome", and geódes "earthly". Philo of Alexandria (De Somniis 1.122) uses oikos "dwelling, home" to refer to the body, saying that "the body is an abode bound up by nature with the soul (ton sumphua tés psukhés oikon to sóma)". As for Paul's use of gumnos "naked" as a metaphor for the disembodied state of the dead, this same metaphor occurs in Plato (cf. Cratylus 403, Gorgias 523). But Paul completely disagrees with Plato on the desirability of being gumnos in death; he sees it as a shameful and uncomfortable fate, arguing that God has better things in store for his followers. And Paul's description of the dead leaving their bodies to be with Christ has parallels in Philo of Alexandria as well. In one passage, Philo wrote that "it is not possible for one who is dwelling in the body (katoikounta en sómati), in a race that is mortal, to be united with God (theó suggenesthai), but only he whom God delivers from that prisonhouse (ton hon ek tou desmótériou theos diarrhuetai)" (Legum Allegoriarum, 3.42), and in another he encouraged his readers to "rouse yourselves up and seek to accomplish a migration (metanastasin) from your own habitation (ton idion oikon) not to death but to immortality (ou thanaton all' athanasian)" (De Migratione Abrahami, 189).

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Fascinating! Thanks, Leo!

  • wobble
    wobble

    I read this section of Paul's writings and wondered about it when I was a YoungDub, having been raised a JW these words read as very strange to me.

    If I recall (I do not have accesss to the WT CD or vols) there was a very unsatisfactory answer to a readers question on this, where they try to talk down the implications of Paul's words, perhaps one of you guys will find it.

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    Leolaia

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    IIRC, the Dubs think it was just a "dream" or a "vision" given to Paul. They totally undermine what it actually SAYS in order to preserve THEIR OWN DOCTRINE.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit