by Billy the Ex-Bethelite 141 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Aussie Oz- you are welcome. This may be the most posts I've ever written in a single day-well night! Its 1:18 am here now.
As hard as it is for me to accept, and deep down I know that it is true, as much as I don't want it to be-
Yes, the evidence proves jws do not have, nor did have, the truth. the more and more it sinks in the harder it is to accept-it is so discouraging.
Thank you very much for your good advice.
I do not feel I owe anybody an apology. but if someone feels that I do they should let me know why. . . . factfinder
Maybe it's a communication thing . . . it's no big deal.
Could you please explain what you mean by theocratic warfare stategy and did I go along with it? . . . factfinder
It may be the term itself you have not heard much . . .
It is built on the premise that "the truth can be witheld/obscured from those who are not entitled to it"
You can find a lot here . . . complete with WT quotes and sources . . .
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/19668/1/A-question-about-Theocratic-Warfare
As a witness I thought everybody was honest in their fs reports.
Possibly there are degrees of honesty . . . in imitation of WT . . . and intimidation from others or their circumstances. I saw a lot more lying than just fudging FS reports.
I was blatantly lied to by a DO once . . . yes DO . . . He knew it, he knew that I knew it, he knew that I knew he knew that I knew it. And it was all to protect somebody. So what do you do? . . . call the DO out? He was just a lying prick looking after a mate of his.
I also was defrauded of $5000 by an Elder from another city . . . who just lied. No recourse.
People fudged some small stuff like FS reports . . . occasionally under pressure from an Elder, occasionally under pressure from a CO, a DO, right the way up . . . to people wanting a premeditated result . . . who will fudge it anyway. It's not surprising when you analyse it . . . it's all for appearances . . . that's what WTS is all about. I'm surprised you didn't see it at some level . . . hence my comment "less absorbed."
sizemik-
Did I come across as self-righteous? I think perhaps I was not clear in expressing my thoughts but then I do have difficulty wording the things the way I wish-so yes, it seems to be a communication thing.
Thank you for the link to the theocratic warfare post-yes I understand now what you mean. Rahab hid the Israelite spies, and then she lied to the soldiers to protect them. Jehovah saved her afterwards.
I do recall reading something in yb accounts (?) or in the w where brothers were careful not to let certain ones discover information that could harm the brothers in lands where the work was banned. They feel it is not lying to withhold certain information from ones they feel have no right to that information.
But withholding information, and telling lies are two different things and it seems some witnesses feel they can stretch" theocratic warfare " to fit whatever circumstances they want. But to deliberatly lie to withhold information is still lying.
sizemik- I also saw lying on the part of elders in the congs I was in. There is no excuse for it.
That is a shame a DO lied to you. And you were defrauded out of $5,000 by an Elder? that is terrible. That is really terrible, I feel very bad for you sizemik.
I guess I was 'less absorbed".
I do not believe lying is justified by 'theocratic warfare". Withholding information is one thing, intentionally providing false information is lying.
Billy - thanks for a very well-written OP, which was a joy to read. I felt a little stupid reading it, NOT because I had missed the fact that global figures may be the subject of "creative accounting", but because I was one of those poor burnt-out sods who was chasing their tails whilst still in the Borg to report genuine hours each month. Sure, I tended to cut a few corners (in comparison to others) when it came to what did and didn't constitute 'counting time', but within that reasoning my time was always genuine - and I really struggled as a result. As a failing pioneer (hours wise) I was constantly under the microscope of my local elders, even when I became an elder myself. I realised then how easy it would be to make up the numbers, but that (in my mind) weakened the value of the genuine time I was reporting, so I never tried it.
As far as the worldwide report is concerned, I too believe that, if the results were genuine, the Society would already be reporting "negative growth". An obvious candidate for the skewed figures is the "30 Other Lands", which seem to represent the most convenient opportunity for inflating the statistics if required. It seems obvious to me that the figures are already being manipulated, given how almost-impossible it is to convert unbelievers (i.e. from doorstep to baptism pool) in developed countries. I recently did a thread in which internet usage by country was compared directly with the worldwide report. The results, in my opinion, proved that the information age is having a real impact on the spread of outdated and flawed teachings like those of the Society.
Think about it for a moment. Someone knocks at your door and manages to present a compelling argument that the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses represent the only true religion on Earth today. You accept an invitation to have a bible study, based on the premise that what he or she is saying is true. If you were really serious, for even a moment, about seeing this to its inevitable conclusion (i.e. changing your whole lifestyle and embracing a religion that is generally loathed and ridiculed by the masses) you would obviously jump on Google, Bing, Yahoo, Ask - type in "Jehovahs Witnesses" and see what the general consensus is about their beliefs.* You would then be directed to sites like this one, or jwfacts etc, and learn the REAL truth before ever having heard their version in full. You would, in effect, instantly become more educated about Witness beliefs and history than Witnesses themselves - and the next time the person called at your door you would thank them but tell them you've had a change of heart. I'm sorry, but I don't see it happening any other way, especially if you have access to the internet in your own home. This hypothetical scenario seems to me to explain why converting people who have no previous affinity with the organization is virtually impossible in developed countries.
In short, either we are ALREADY in negative growth, or we will be very shortly - but we will never know about it.
The end is coming very quickly, but not the kind of "end" the Witnesses have in mind....
* I personally use search engines for choosing which films to go and see at the cinema by reading their ratings, etc. I can't imagine how choosing a religion would merit any less scrutiny by those who are sincerely interested.
Withholding information is one thing, intentionally providing false information is lying. . . . factfinder
It's not always a distinction WTS makes in my experience. When information is required, witholding the true information sometimes requires supplying false (eg; Abraham and Sarah in Egypt). On occasion . . . being in possession of true information and witholding it allows false information to prevail . . . thereby "telling" a lie. All that is required is a perceived righteous motive.
The "theocratic warfare" principle is applied to varying degrees . . . but the higher up the tree, the more it is exercised it would seem. It's a cultural aspect of this religion that the truth is negotiable in a lot of areas . . . their doctrinal and prophecy shifts, and accounts of their history, are two notable examples. It is not surprising to me that many are shaped by that environment to the extent we are subjected to it.
Uncovering even more scandalous truths about JW's since leaving (I've seen the doc's), exposes the full extent of it all. It's a supreme irony coming from an Organisation that calls itself "the truth"
BTW . . . after the DO lied I was gone within a year. I guess I was expendable.
cedars . . . very true. Times are a changin'
factfinder . . . this is how I see it . . .
With regard to honesty, the WTS has three faces . . . the good, the not so good, and the downright ugly.
Some saw mostly one face, others two, and still others all three.
We became whatever they fed us . . . and that wasn't the best we could be. I'm a much better person now than I ever was when a JW. What I do now actually does something worthwhile for others . . . because I'm free to want to do it first . . . and it isn't a lie anymore. I am free to tell the truth and to test what I hear for truth.
I'm done with their lying personally . . . and from the time I've been here . . . I believe the majority here are done with it too. Most are honest now . . . they've moved past it. It's freedom to tell the truth now . . . and not feel guilty anymore . . . I'm done with that too. It's what we do now that matters right?
"...If you were really serious, for even a moment, about seeing this to its inevitable conclusion (i.e. changing your whole lifestyle and embracing a religion that is generally loathed and ridiculed by the masses) you would obviously jump on Google, Bing, Yahoo, Ask - type in "Jehovahs Witnesses" and see what the general consensus is about their beliefs. ..."
Uhm, Cedars, that's very perceptive of you - and far-sighted...
Unfortunately, not everyone is as far-thinking... I can't count the number of times I've mentioned to my in-laws and friends that, before they apply for a position/job, they should search for the company's name followed by the word "lawsuit"...
I did so for several positions I was going to apply for, and was astounded to learn that the places I sought employment at, had lawsuits involving the DEATHS of employees due to careless behavior and an abysmal lack of proper safety procedures...
Oh, and the companies ALSO had a smaller amount of lawsuits involving the deaths of CUSTOMERS while shopping in their stores...
I'm talking about two well-known building-supply companies here in the U.S.A.....
Wow... Talk about an eye-opener...
Checking for lawsuits before seeking employment could save a potential employee SO much pain and trouble - what if the company has been hammered with a lawsuit that's going to endanger its financial future - its very existence? What if the owners/company officers have personally been involved in "Ponzi" schemes, or worse??
And yet most people of my acquaintance fail to even consider double-checking the company and major officers before "joining the team"...
Joining a religion is often a VERY EMOTIONAL decision... I suspect that people would be even less likely to check out their religion, as opposed to their place of work...
Zid
I think many Witnesses are nowhere near as precise as Factfinder was, in this and other matters. For one thing, they love to play with definitions of words to rationalize their lies. The blood transfusion issue, for example, in which they keep saying it is a 'personal' decision or that there is no sanction for disobeying.
Beyond that, we need to acknowledge a continuing problem with all sorts of over the top dishonesty in the organization: people who are gay but closeted, kids leading a double life, child molesters, business frauds and more.
No, I don't know how they put it all together in their heads but the dominant Witness rule of conduct is righteousness to be viewed by men. And that's why meeting attendance explodes during a CO visit and goes down afterward.
metatron
factfinder
When you wrote this ( I also have mild aphasia. Thats what happens when you have had 3 mini strokes!) I have really felt bad at how everyone has jumped on you as I truly think it was just a huge misunderstanding on everyone's part.
My husband has had two major heart attacks and his thinking and they way he gets things is a lot slower now then before. It is so hard to see it in him and that is another huge anger I have at the elders as his first heart attack happened at the meeting while he was conducting the school, and the elders let me his wife drive him alone to the hospital. They never called an ambulance as they did not want to case a seen at the KH, nor did anyone offer to drive me and only one elder came up afterwords. No one called that night or the next day to see if I needed anything, etc.
All of that aside I truly want to thank you for answering everyone and again I am sorry that you too got hurt in this all. Billy the ex really is a great guy from all of his threads that I have read. He is just really, really hurt by this religion as so many of us have been and he truly is a very honest person.
As far as Bethel goes and the lying it was such a huge mess that it would take a book to write about it all, there was petty lying to down to out right lying. One of my overseers overseer was really just this huge bully who yelled at everyone, one time he took to carry a base ball bat around saying he was going to use it to knock the heads of ones he did not like. I was sick when I saw it. I just could not believe it. He would yell all the time and say to you that you were not at Bethel for the right reasons, etc he just knew that no one really wanted to be there. Like he could read my heart.
Anyway one time it got so bad that I called my husband and we went to see Max Lawson the head of the Factory about it. All of a sudden Max could not hear or speak all he did was mumble. Now Max did not have any problems with speaking and he conducted morning worship all the time, he spoke perfectly clear when he was in front of the Bethel family but all of a sudden in front of my husband and I in his office all he could do was MUMBLE. I was crying and telling him about how horrible this Bethel elder was treating everyone including me and Max knew what I was saying was true.
Anyway to me that was a huge lie the way Max was mumbling and acting like he did not understand what I was saying and very hurtful to many. The Bethel elder should have been talked to in the least and told if he kept it up he would have to leave Bethel, but see the guy was so worldly sounding that they used him in talking with the union people when they were building 90 Sands and that was more important then his yelling at the brothers. I know many brothers who gave up vacations to come to work temporary at Bethel were just blown away by the language and conduct of this guy much less many others.
That is just one of so many lies I have seen in my life in this religion.
Again I am sorry about your strokes and the misunderstanding.
LITS
