Free Will and Foreknowledge

by TheUbermensch 70 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    Philosophy was invented in pursuit of a METHOD for discovery what is true and how to reason correctly toward that true picture of reality.

    You cannot mix together things which nullify each other and call it a METHOD.

    You may as well mix arsenic with fresh drinking water.

    Christianity is forever tainted by mysticism. Yet, christians of all persuasions try to argue that the Bible is a source of "greater" reality.

    This is asserted and it falls flat when it comes against Science time and again.

    Consequently, Christianity cheats by resorting to mystical subjective and Intrinsic flummery to get its way.

    Essentially, they eat their cake and want to still have it. Deuces are wild.

    "Our doctrines are True because God says so and WE ALONE can interpret correctly on His behalf!"

    What does all this have to do with FREE WILL and FOREKNOWLEDGE?

    The important underlying basis of ANY and ALL arguments about it are deeply rooted in 1 or more of the above 3 schools of Philosophy.

    Until and Unless you KNOW how to distinguish where one ends and the others begin there is a tar pit of muck that will bog your arguments down.

    You cannot switch from Intrinsic to Subjective to Objective and make any connected and rational point that will stand!

    IF there is no ACTUAL REALITY nobody can argue anything and prove anything. Why? It is all shadows and flickering nonsense in our head!

    IF anybody's subjective opinion IS AS GOOD as everybody else's there can be no Science and no proof.

    BUT IF THERE IS AN OBJECTIVE REALITY....we all have a way to test and refine and prove our point of view by how well it stands or falls.

    Mixing philosophies is a coward's way of resorting to misdirection, like a card cheat or a magician.

    Only RIGOROUS rational and logical thinking have given us mathematics, science and technology. There is nothing subjective about aiming at Mars and landing a rover there! There is nothing shadowy and Intrinsic about discovering the Genome and charting DNA in human beings to locate and cure disease! Only OBJECTIVE thought can pinpoint with accuracy and discover the real world.

    Bottom line?

    Free Will is not an OBJECTIVE thing which can be put under an electron microscope. It is a conceptual model of a decision tree.

    What pulls the trigger on a decision is inside the machine we use to REASON.

    In order to take apart that machine we must dismantle our only means of discovery.

    The mind cannot examine its own function because self-reference is what triggers the glitch of Paradoxical thinking.

    A mirror reflected in a mirror reflected in a mirror reflected in a mirror reflected in a mirror......

    or, at the very least the Mind looking at Itself.

    Philosophy answers the questions 1.What do we know and 2.How do we know it?

    There are 3 schools of philosophy, essentially.

    1.Intrinsic

    2.Subjective

    3.Objective

    The first, Intrinsic, accepts as a given that the only true reality is inaccessible except by shadows in our mind which are poor representations.

    The intrinsic theory holds that the good resides in some sort of reality, independent of man’s consciousness.

    The second, Subjective, prefers to embrace the idea that we each carry around our own reality which is as good as the next fella.

    The subjective means the arbitrary, the irrational, the blindly emotional.

    The third, Objective, insists that Reality is "things as they actually are" no matter what anybody's opinion may be.

    The objective theory of values is the only moral theory incompatible with rule by force.

    Plato believed there were FORMS of an IDEAL truth, essentially like our ideas of GOD. Humanity flounders around unable to distinctly grasp the fullness of it. His is that Intrinsic school.

    Neo-Platonic schools were very popular in the sections of the Roman Empire where Christianity was being transmitted, formed and argued.

    Plato did not use Logic. It had not yet been invented by the later Aristotle (Objective school).

    Once the Roman Catholic church became entrenched and authoratative in controlling the definitions of Christian Dogma, its two greatest Philosophers established Aristotle-like reasoning as the basis for argumentation.

    However, although the style of Aristotle was emulated, the Objective nature of reality was denied and Plato's ideas soaked in to everything taught.

    Jehovah's Witnesses play at Socratic arguments (Plato's heroic character) door to door and imply that theirs is an Objective Truth. However logically constructed their arguments may appear it is important to note there is nothing OBJECTIVE about the basis: mystical knowledge from Anointed shaman: the GB.

    What am I saying here? What point is being made?

    In an Objective Universe that can be understood we must be FREE to understand.

  • TheUbermensch
    TheUbermensch

    You just attempted to oversimplify philosphy into three thinking methods? Yikes.

    Actually, philosophy handles everything that we do. Every action and thought that a human being does/has is affected by philosophy. Objective, Intrinsic, and Subjective are three schools of thought concerning areas of philosphy. The way you described them, I am assuming (since you didn't actually address any philosophical area of study) that you were speaking of existentialism, since reality was the mainpoint to your three "explanations".

    I do believe you misunderstand philosophy. There isn't anything that is set and stone. So, as you say, "mixing philosophies" is literally impossible. Philosophy is universal. There aren't certain areas of philosophy that you can't mix with others. It's all "mixable".

    Philosophy does not answer "1. What do we know and 2. How do we know it?" It also answers What can we know? Can we know at all? How can we know it? Is there anything to know in the first place? Philosophy also answers questions outside of epistemological questioning (which is basically all you talked about). It also answers How should we live? Why do we live? Should we live? Are we actually living? It also answers logical questions, What is logic? Is logic in and of itself logical? Can logic answer all? Is logic limited? Morality, Ethics, and Consciousness are also major parts (morality probably being the most discussed philosophical subject in history). Cause and effect and how Hume disproved the universal truth that IS Cause and effect (which is hardly known by anyone, and is still taught in schools). Political Philosophy Limited government? Imposing government? For the good of few or many? And then another major area of study, metaphysical traits and values, concerning deities, religious dogma, etc. And MUCH more.

    I truly hope that people haven't taken your word for it (if you've said something along the same lines in the past), because you have just taken one of the most important factors that effects everything that everyone does, and shot it down as unimportant and meaningless.

    And to give you examples of "mixing". Moral philosophy GREATLY affects political philosophy (Marx, Locke, Rousseau). Logic greatly affects metaphysical propositions.

    P.S. Hellinistic philosophy is such a small section of the world that is philosophy. Medieval, and contemporary thought are the most discussed and constantly changing viewpoints (much like science) that there is. In fact, philosophy is a lot like science. Aristotle was a great mind, but unfortunately the time that he lived in was very limited in knowledge, and thus he was stifled. Aristotelian thought, besides his logic, isn't considered as important as more modern though, although every professor of Aristotelian thought would say otherwise. Plato, luckily, didn't discuss timely things, instead, most of his writings concerned political philosophy (The Republic), reality (his Allegory of the Cave) morality and justice (Crito) and the immortal soul (Phaedo). Epicurus discussed God (one of the first). However, philosophers throught time have critiqued other works, and have slowly started towards truth, just like science. They are very similar in their ever changing, ever molding ways.

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle

    all knowingness is not a feature I would attribute to God and I always want to argue against the assertion that he is all knowing. I think it can be asserted more strongly that he knows more than humans but then we would also have to allow that humans know some things God doesn't know or that humans can teach him some things - this latter point would allow a certain amount of freedom to humans.

    But I think God's all-knowingness fulfills an imaginative and emotional function and what does philosophy have to say about this? Hardly anything I suspect

  • sizemik
    sizemik

    I must have missed this thread going by . . .

    The OP is 100% correct IMO. Freewill and omniscience are incompatible. That throws up a huge dilemma for me. Only one, at most, can be true.

    You can never really ask what "philosophy" says, because it's not a source of information, it's more like a place of wonder. But wonder drives all science.

    I remember a saying/quote vaguely . . .

    Science asks the questions, and looks for the answers. Philosophy looks for the questions, to ask the answers for.

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle

    I agree sizemik - that philosophy looks for the questions to ask the answers for. For example one of the answers posed often on jwn is that God knows the past and the future and yet still that he allows free will. Well if he allows free will then we have to question whether or not he know the present. I suggest that a way out of this conundrum is to pose the possibilty that he does not know the present because the present is being lived.

  • man oh man
    man oh man

    God does not know the future! If he knew the future he would not be a God of love. The future has not happened so God cannot know it. When a doctor gives fore-knowledge according to how a persons treatment will turn out he only can base this on his wisdom as a doctor. God bases what he says regarding the future on his wisdom. He is almighty so he can also steer the outcome. When God created adam and eve he did not know how they would act nor did he program them to act a certain way. He knew the possibilities. But he could find a Just way to handle whatever came about. Any action god takes must be in harmony with his personality.

    As usual people misunderstand the words in the bible and make it say what they want.

    Thats my take anyhaa

  • Luke
    Luke

    NewChapter

    We don't all work that way, of course. But the board was full of condemnation when so many people ignored that toddler in China after she'd been struck by a car. How inhumane. How could they? We watched them weave around her (not me personally, I couldn't watch it) and it disgusted us. Because they knew about it and had the power to help, but they didn't. They knew, they had the power to help and they didn't! It was unacceptable. But for some reason, when it comes to this god, it is not only acceptable, but wise.----and loving. Not only did he know, he knew ahead of time, which addresses the OP

  • Terry
    Terry

    I do believe you misunderstand philosophy. There isn't anything that is set and stone. So, as you say, "mixing philosophies" is literally impossible. Philosophy is universal. There aren't certain areas of philosophy that you can't mix with others. It's all "mixable".

    This is absurd. Sorry, but it is.

    Philosophy comes down to METHODS.

    What was Universal about the Scientific Method? It was fought tooth and nail by Religion.

    Science pulled back the curtain on superstitious nonsense and let the light flood in. Would you MIX the two?

    Superstition was (and is) a poor method for understanding the world in which we live.

    Why? It did not address reality and practical living.

    Offering child sacrifice for good crops is not only stupid, but, monstrous. It doesn't solve any problem. It creates problems.

    Greek Philosophy was an advancement on superstition only so far as it did NOT MIX logic and rational reasoning with superstition. Socrates did not promote the "gods" when he spoke to the Greek Youth. He was sentenced to death! Why? For "corrupting" them.

    Religion deals with a cast of Invisible Characters IN CHARGE OF OUR FATES and we are told we must APPEASE them. What this really boils down to is appeasing some guy in a fancy robe with his hand out for donations.

    PHILOSOPHY permeates how we go about our problem solving.

    To solve a problem you either do the correct thing or you fumble about. The worst you can do is destroy.

    POLITICS directly stems from philosophy.

    Hitler's Third Reich exploited what Hegel, Kant and Nietzsche had done to the minds of university students. The Ubermensch, the Superman, had the Will to Power and no Jews deserved to stand in their way. Kant had taught that obedience to superior authority was every man DUTY. See where it got the Germans?

    The American Constitution was created by men in an Age of Reason who succeeded in separating the powers of government and allowing the People to

    determine their own fate. But, the Founding Fathers MIXED philosophies with Deist superstitious nonsense and opened a crack that has become a chasm in American politics.

    The Catholic Church MIXED the logical reasoning of Aristotle with Plato's nonsense to buttress SUPERSTITIOUS dogma.

    It is the abandonment of fact-based, testable METHODOLOGY for mixed ideas which incorporate the poison of superstition which cripples society again and again.

    Mixing water and poison is impossible if you demand others drink it and enjoy good health!

    Mixing methods of Philosophy is impossible if you demand that university students enjoy a practical life in the real world.

    So, it is I who must accuse YOU of not understanding Philosophy.

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle

    man oh man

    God does not know the future! If he knew the future he would not be a God of love. The future has not happened so God cannot know it. When a doctor gives fore-knowledge according to how a persons treatment will turn out he only can base this on his wisdom as a doctor. God bases what he says regarding the future on his wisdom. He is almighty so he can also steer the outcome. When God created adam and eve he did not know how they would act nor did he program them to act a certain way. He knew the possibilities. But he could find a Just way to handle whatever came about. Any action god takes must be in harmony with his personality.

    As usual people misunderstand the words in the bible and make it say what they want.

    Thats my take anyhaa

    I agree that love needs to form part of the argument, it is just that it is quite awkward how to understand this. the Greeks had a God called chronus which=time and was represented as a snake in a circular shape. In this form God can be seen to be past and future and be present to us thus satisfying the need for love to be part of his personality. But then this sets our own perspective of time as not being in tune with God's. If we can accept that our view of time is different to Gods then we can call on his wisdom as a wisdom of possibilities. I can just feel that theuberone is going to tell me I'm talking crap - go on uber, I dare you.

  • TheUbermensch
    TheUbermensch
    Hitler's Third Reich exploited what Hegel, Kant and Nietzsche had done to the minds of university students. The Ubermensch, the Superman, had the Will to Power and no Jews deserved to stand in their way. Kant had taught that obedience to superior authority was every man DUTY. See where it got the Germans?

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAhahiuhahahahahahahahahahhaha. Where in Nietzsche's writings did he say that Jews did not have the Will to Power? ahahahahahahahahahah That's almost like saying that Lenin and Stalin practiced Marxist theory. ahahahahahahahaha.

    MIXING PHILOSOPHY IS POSSIBLE.

    Empiricism is one type of thought where rationalism is another. There are two different thought processes that concern ALL philosophies. Obviously morality is mixed with metaphysics because our metaphysical beliefs are what create or affect moral beliefs.

    Read some philosophy before you comment on it. Kant did not believe in a submission to a superior authority, he believed that authority would always exist. Your submission is not necessary if it hinders your freedom or the freedom of others. The government only exists in a Kantian ideology to protect your freedom and to ensure your freedoms to not hinder others freedom.

    Obviously you haven't read Metaphysics of Morals or Perpetual Peace

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit