Free Will and Foreknowledge

by TheUbermensch 70 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    God is outside time as we know it, so our view of the future is NOT something God is subject to.

    God knows all that God chooses to know, muck like God can do all that is logical and correct for God to do ( He can't make a square circle for example).

    That God knows, based on our nature, what we will do ( every conceivable option) doesn't mean that God WILL anyone of those to occur, as such we have free will do choose our path, even though God knows what that choice will be since he knows ALL possible choices.

    Free will is far more than us being able o DO what we want, it is about us HAVING the CHOICE to choose Good ( God) or evil.

    Free will is NOT about what type of coffee we will have or what job or if we will have kids, it is about following God or choosing NOT to follow God and following something else.

    As for God being "jealous", this is just another passage were man tries to describe God in human terms ( and kind of fails really).

    God is jealous yes, like any parent that is jealous when their child decides to "love" another and that love will lead them to ruin.

  • Wasanelder Once
    Wasanelder Once

    I didn't know that Will was being held captive. I agree, we should free him.

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    PSacramento: Do you believe that God loves everyone and that he sincerely desires that everyone be saved?

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety
    If we take the standard, contemporary Judeo-Christian God (all-knowing, all powerful, and perfectly good in every possible way) and attempt to incorporate free will, we end up with a contradiction. An all knowing being knows everything that has occured, is occuring and will occur, if otherwise then we can not consider this being to know all. If God knows all that WILL happen, then he knows our decisions, as well as the outcomes of those decisions. In other words, our choices, and all life in general is pre destined, and free will is simply illusory.

    Not really, that God knows everything that will ever happen does not mean that our decisions are not freely chosen.

    For free will to exist, we would need to be able to make a decision that would take our deity by surprise,

    No, it would not. If I knew you well, I might know with a high degree of certainty a decision you would make under a given set of circumstances.

    Does that somehow violate your free will?

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    PSacramento: Do you believe that God loves everyone and that he sincerely desires that everyone be saved?

    Yes, but God also knows (as we do) that not everyone will choose to be saved.

    As CS Lewis said, eventually what we have is Us saying to God,"thy will be done", or God saying to Us, "thy will be done".

    I know that some people believs that there are those that are destined to damnation and thier are passages that seem to imply that and I wish that I could have a concrete answer for you as to why those passages seem to imply that, but I don't.

    Of course for every passage that says that God as destined soem for damnation, there is one that says that God wants ALL to come to Him and be saved, so we must reconcile what APPEARS to be a contridiction, but how are we to do that?

  • WontLeave
    WontLeave

    God is outside time as we know it

    Evidence?

    Jehovah can indeed see all of time.

    Evidence?

    God knows everything that will ever happen

    Evidence?

    What's the point in you people leaving JWs because they pull doctrine out of their asses, just to latch onto other doctrine pulled out of a different ass? I guess if you pull it out of your own ass, at least you can call it your own and have a cult of one. Maybe some just want to be the leader, even if it's over nothing. Well, good luck with your empty cult of made-up beliefs. I guess every cult starts out that way. Maybe a few of you can get lucky and acquire some followers, then you can have people look to you as a "prophet" or "leader". Whatever you need to feel whole and gets you through your day. Or, you could just fix your life so you don't need that kind of outside, artificial reassurance that you're not a waste of oxygen. Take some classes, get a job that makes you feel like you're accomplishing something, volunteer for a cause you care about, take control of your life and make it meaningful and fulfilling.

    I've watched the blind lead the blind enough at the Kingdom Hall and other churches; haven't you guys? There seem to be a lot of people here who really desire to be blind leaders themselves. Did you only leave out of jealousy, because the cult wouldn't let you join the tiny oligarchy at the top? That's what happened to Rick Ferron. He wanted to be part of the "FDS", but he didn't have the political connections; so he left and started his own cult. But it really mattered to him a lot and he put in the work to build it. Now, he has a psycho church, a psycho website, a psycho call-in show, and some psycho followers. You willing to put in the time and effort to spackle over the huge holes in your life like he did? If not, you'll just remain like he was at the beginning: A self-important freak lusting for power because he had nothing else to show for his existence on this planet. Don't be a sad, pathetic, loser version of Rick Ferron. He's sad and pathetic enough, having succeeded in his sad, pathetic goal. And if you're getting your freaky beliefs "directly from God", then seek some psychiatric help.

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety

    WontLeave, while I respect your opinion, none of your comment adresses the subject of the thread. IF there is an omniscient God with foreknowledge, HOW is it that we can have free will? You seem to reject the premise of a God even existing (which is fine by me) so really, what is the point of discussing the apparent paradox with you? You don't have a dog in the fight, and I find the way you characterize anyone who has left the JWs but nonetheless retains some form of theistic belief to be offensive.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Evidence?

    You want evidence of a philosophical view?

    What qualifies as evidence of something philosophical, in your opinion?

  • WontLeave
    WontLeave

    @ botchtowersociety

    What post are you responding to? It's no wonder you can go so far beyond what is written; your reading comprehension sucks.

    @ PSacramento

    Baseless theories and arbitrary opinions hardly qualify as a philosophical discussion. Why not decree God is purple? Nobody's ever seen him, so everybody can just make up their own opinion and pass it off as an intelligent conversation.

    This sounds like conversations people have when they're stoned out of their minds. Anyone sober in the room realizes they don't make any sense and are all being pseudo-intellectual idiots, because their minds have been artificially altered. Let's all argue about how tall God is, now. I mean, really... This discussion is stupid, as the entire basis of it is "Let's invent extra-Biblical doctrine, then argue about it." Let's argue about God's favorite song, too.

  • TheUbermensch
    TheUbermensch

    Philosophical standpoints are derived from evidence. This evidence can be the nature of the human psyche or the original writings of the opponent (i.e. the Bible, Koran, etc.). For instance, the Ubermensch (Beyond Man, overman, superman) was proposed by Nietzsche as the goal of humanity. His contention was that the people who turn away from the Earth and seek other-wordliness (heaven, hell, afterlife) are caused to do so because of a dissatisfaction with life (which was an idea put on them by the institutions who give them an escape) and this other world or life is created by the dissatisfaction where all the people who made this person unhappy or dissatisfied are punished. Nietzsche didn't pull this out of his ass. He studied the human psyche, the natural need for an escape from reality because most weren't/aren't able to face the cold, hard world that actually exists in front of are eyes.

    Free Will and foreknoweldge aren't the only contradictions of God. If God is all powerful could he create a boulder that he couldn't lift? And there are answers to the arguments proposed by Christians or other religious people, like the question "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

    It's true that knowing someone is going to do something and making them do it are two different things.... in a human perspective. However, we're talking about a deity, an all knowing deity. If you KNOW what is going to happen as a god, then it is going to happen. We aren't talking about action, we are talking about knowledge. If I have choice A or B and God knows I will choose A, then where is the choice in that? I didn't have the choice to choose B simply because he KNEW that I would choose A. In my simple, human, Christian mind I believe that I chose A because I had the choice to, when in all reality, I was going to choose A ANYWAYS.

    N.Drew, you are using the power of knowing all whenever it helps your cause. He would have known someone would change his mind, he would have known time would be redirected, he would have already DONE it. So if God knew every plea, beg, etc. to change something, and he was going to do it, he would have already done it (because he's perfectly good right?). So the life we have now, God would have planned for us at the beginning, he would have seen our troubles and fixed them (because he's all powerful, and all good, and all knowing right?) however you've just created an argument against yourself. If God is all knowing, he would have known our troubles, if God was perfectly good he would want to help our troubles, and if he was all powerful he would have changed our troubles, however, we still have troubles, people still starve. You can't have one and not the other. You can't choose a certain power that works at one time, and not at the other. Those three traits for God can NOT co exist if he is applied to our world now. It's a contradiction upon itself.

    Let's say we do have free will for this example. Let's say tomorrow, I will have a choice to cross a street (A) or walk 50 yards up ahead to the stop light and the safe cross walk(B). God is all knowing, so he already knows my decision and consequence. He knows that if I choose A and cross the street, a car will hit me and I will die, and he knows that I will live if I choose B. He knows the effect of the cause. But he also knows that I will choose B. Now, if I randomly choose A, and die, he was WRONG. An all knowing being can NOT be WRONG. Being incorrect is the anti thesis of being all knowing. In other words, if I DID have the choice, God could not know all, and for centuries human beings have been worshipping a God with false ideas about his being. But if God was all knowing he would have KNOWN that I would choose A. I do not have the choice, or the chance to choose B, because he knew I was going to choose A, and I did, because he can't be wrong.

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