Here Comes "The Sun"

by MoneurMallard 18 Replies latest jw friends

  • MoneurMallard
    MoneurMallard

    What are everyone's thoughts on the concept of a solar deity in relation to the Jesus story?

    Now this is something I have entertained over the years, the stunning relationship of the solar myths and the way the gospels describe Jesus' death and resurrection as compared with the Roman Saturnalia.

    It's odd that JW's are about to recognize that Christmas doesn't originate with Christ (thank God for that because I still celebrate Christmas and don't care if it has anything to do with a religious figure or not, I celebrate it because I like the idea of giving people gifts, I love the smell of the trees, I love the lights, snow, all of it... I could care less if a thousand year old prophet in another continent thinks it's a "custom of the nations".... well I love America and it's a nation that deserves to be thankful for it's luck of the draw, and if it wants to mix customs and holidays, so be it....

    Your thoughts, fellow ex-socks?

    MM

  • mindseye
    mindseye

    Yes, I have often thought about the similarity between the Jesus story and the sun myths. I have also often thought about how the idea of God may have originated with the sun.

    http://stellarhousepublishing.com/jesussunexcerpt.html

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    I thought the Jesus Myth was based on ET!!

  • tec
    tec

    I don't think there is any connection. Some phrases that are being used to try and make a connection, perhaps. But nothing substantial. Nothing real.

    It's odd that JW's are about to recognize that Christmas doesn't originate with Christ

    I thought they always knew that and that is why they didn't celebrate it?

    Peace,

    Tammy

  • tec
    tec

    I should add that some of those phrases, and a connection, might come from their being a metaphor.

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    I think this is all based on an original Star Trek episode from 1968 called "Bread and Circuses".

    That's right, I just went full nerd on you. Captain Kirk is the man.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    First of all, Saturnalia has no direct relation iirc to solar deities or the dying-rising mytheme. I think you are confusing this festival (which honored Kronos/Saturn) with the fourth century Roman Natalis Invicti feast which certainly was a solstice solar festival (honoring Sol Invictus). Both may have had a cultural influence on the observation of Christmas in the early Church, but that's a separate issue from whether the narrative or theological role of Jesus of the NT and gospels draws on non-Christian solar deities like Sol Invictus, Apollo, Mithra, Horus, etc. The "copycat" claims popular on the internet (e.g. that Horus was born in a manger and had twelve apostles and was crucified, etc.) are largely bogus; they invent a "mythology" for the pagan god that cribs from Christianity and bears little resemblance of actual ancient beliefs. Most narrative parallels to details in the gospels lie instead in midrashic interpretation and reuse of the OT — i.e. drawing on native Jewish storytelling resources than pagan ones (e.g. the story of the temptation of Jesus is based on the exodus-wandering narratives in the Torah). Most of the genuine parallels to non-Jewish mythologies are of a more general kind (literary and folkloric topoi), which do not necessarily involve direct dependence. The relevant example of this here is the dying-rising motif. Although this is utilized in solar cults wrt winter solstice, in the ANE it was instead associated with the heat and dryness of summer and the return of rain in autumn. This is what traditionally was the case with Baal, Tammuz, and Adonis in Canaanite, Israelite, and Phoenician religion (the ritual mourning of Tammuz confirmed as part of pre-exilic Jewish practice in Ezekiel 8). These were fertility and/or rain gods, not solar deities (the solar deity in Canaanite religion, Shapsh, was a rather minor goddess). The parallel with Baal is not simply the dying-rising topos but also Baal's role (the adopted son of El, the creator god, who reigns at the consent of his father). However this is also very general as well. But at least we have a direct link: Yahweh in the OT draws on older Baal motifs (along with El motifs) and Jesus was quasi-identified with Yahweh in the NT. The throne vision in ch. 7 of Daniel in particular was of crucial importance in early Christian christology and it is widely recognized as incorporating the older El-Baal dynamic. Still the Christian-Canaanite parallel involves only the most basic themes (father-and-son, dying-and-rising).

    As for the mystery cults in the later Hellenistic and Roman eras, it is difficult to know exactly what sort of myths were associated with them since the evidence is usually very sketchy, late, and a lot that has been reconstructed is known to be unreliable. So for instance, some have reconstructed a "Mithras myth" that has strong similarities to the gospel narratives of Jesus, but often this picks and chooses motifs from the very different Iranian (re Mithra) and Roman (re Mithras) cults and much of it is inferred rather than attested. The Isis-Horus cult has solid attestation by Plutarch, but some arbitrarily add motifs from the very long history of these deities, and it is unclear if some of these were present in the Roman-era religion. The Sol Invictus cult itself is quite late, largely adopted after its promotion by Emperor Elagabalus in the third century AD. I will say there is one facet to the narratives of Jesus that I feel has good evidence of at least being parallel to certain mystery cults and mythologies: the child-in-peril theme of the birth narrative. The Lukan birth narrative has no relation to this, but the messianic birth narrative in ch. 12 of Revelation attests a narrative complex found in the Isis-Horus and Leto-Apollo myths (with parallels to the Rhea-Zeus myth): the mother gives birth to a god or savior figure, the child and mother are threatened by a monster or malevolent figure, the mother and child are taken into hiding (by the wind or a bird) in the wilderness or a remote island. The Matthean birth narrative draws virtually all its narrative features from the story of Moses from the Torah and in midrashic retellings, but it shares the same basic plot — with Herod taking the role of the dragon in Revelation, Seth/Typhon in the Isis-Horus myth, Python in the Leto-Apollo myth. That there is a relationship is also seen in the various Illuminator birth legends retold in the 13Kingdoms section of the Apocalypse of Adam (re how the different nations have different stories about how the Illuminator comes), which has clear parallels to ch. 12 of Revelation, the Isis and Leto birth legends, the Mithras birth legends, etc. It is however unclear which came first — whether the Matthean birth narrative historicized the mythological child-in-peril plot from Revelation by drawing on Moses midrash or whether the Matthean story or a precursor of it came first independent of the Isis/Leto myths and John of Patmos incorporated a version of the myth in Revelation on the strength of the parallels. There is a clear thematic connection between the Revelation and Matthew texts, but all the features that most strongly resemble the Isis/Leto myths and 13Kingdoms are missing in the Matthean story, and the OT itself provides sufficient source material (but not combined in the same way; the massacre story draws on Pharaoh's massacre of Hebrew male children whereas the flight-into-Egypt story draws directly on the flight-from-Egypt story of a more mature Moses into the land of Midian). So there is a likely relationship even though its nature is somewhat unclear. But this is the kind of evidence (with a more detailed narrative plot) based on genuine ancient sources that is more convincing than reliance on very general topoi and on very late and questionable evidence (such as a 19th-century self-styled Egyptologist's rather speculative synthesis of the Isis-Horus mystery cult).

  • MoneurMallard
    MoneurMallard

    Leolaia, I salute you. Well established treatise indeed.

    I was wondering who would catch the misinterpretation, and yes, I meant to refer to the Roman Sol Invictus... so many ancient Mediterranean myths it's hard to keep track of them all.

    To elaborate my second point in the thread, which was actually my intent, though, how many of you celebrate Christmas now? I know I like the modern holiday, and man of my friends do, despite it's custom's origin or source.

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    I am sticking with Star Trek. They have accurately predicted more things than the Bible.

  • Broken Promises
    Broken Promises

    Star Wars or Star Trek - which is the true prophet?

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