The Supreme Law of the Land

by Farkel 65 Replies latest jw friends

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Thank you, dear JT (peace to you!). My friend, although not a Harvard graduate, also graduated from an ABA school... as well as clerked in the federal district court. In addition, although not a lawyer, I did attend law school and hold a JD (2008). So, it's not like "some lawyer" told me something and I just fell for it. She really is someone I have a lot of respect for, as a person AND an attorney (unlike some other attorneys... and persons... who I might no longer have as much respect for, unfortunately).

    It's too bad... but very telling (as usual) that my initial comments were taken so personally by someone they weren't even directed to... and once again prompting the posting of a curriculum vitae. But there's really no reason to keep throwing one's educational resume around, truly: we all get it. Unfortunately, though, no one here really cares about such things... unless they're asking for advice, which does occur, from time to time. Otherwise, Hastings, Columbia, NYU, Billy Bob's Other Side of the Tracks Law School (where I attended)... no law school... heck, no HIGH school... we're all pretty equal, IMHO. I mean, stand us all up buck naked and academic degrees (nor the paper they're printed on) aren't going to cover as much as we might "need" them to - .

    Again, peace to you... and thank you!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I do not agree that justices trade votes the way legislators do. There are shifting coalitions. Justice Roberts has placed a higher premium on unanimous decisions which is different from Justice Rehnquist. It is interesting from my perspective to have a second year law student? critique me. Law is complex yet it must also be capable of being understood and the reasoning applied to future cases. Unlike you, I've been reading law review articles about judicial behavior for decades. It is a mind bogging field. Every theory, except ham and eggs, sounds reasonable until you read the next category. I've noticed that when questioned the justices don't endorse a particular rationale.

    I've seen that the justices reach out on C-Span to explain the process. Their eloquence and ability to explain complex legal problems for the average American is very impressive. Civics needs to be taught in schools. I believe most of what happens in the courts can be understood by the general public. The New York Times beat proves that cases can be summarized without compromising issues. The problem I see is that very few Americans watch C-Span. I marvel at their ability to discuss matters in conference, attend moot court competitions, and then address grade school students.

    I am not a law professor. Perhaps I will be one day. Horsetrading does not occur. Something subtler occurs. There is a definite segment of cases that resolve 5-4 constantly with bad humor on both sides.

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Please stay on topic, folks. This is not a race to see who's the smartest, or (shudder) the most educated. The Constitution of the United States of America is the supreme law of the land and should be given the respect it deserves. THAT is my topic. If you agree, say so. If you don't, then also say so. Little governments are constantly passing laws that violate not only the Bill of Rights, but just about everything else in the Constitution, and somebodies need to say, "I'm mad as hell, and I can't take it anymore."

    band on the run,

    You said:

    : John Marshall came away from those arguments as a towering Americna figure and Jefferson was diminished. Jefferson incurred so much debt with foreign governments (Personal debt,not US debt) that it compromised American foreign policy. Jefferson is a complex character. He had great stengths and great weaknesses.

    If you haven't already done so, you should read the book on Thomas Jefferson called "Thomas Jefferson, the American Sphinx" (I don't exactly remember the precise title but "Sphinx" should nail it in your search). It was quite fair about Jefferson's strengths and weaknesses.

    It is common for great people to have great weaknesses, too. In fact, it is rare when they don't. Einstein's personal life was a disaster, but oh! What great things he did!

    Farkel

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    It is interesting from my perspective to have a second year law student? critiqe me.

    I'm sure it is! ; ) But, really, you critiqued yourself; I just agreed with your conclusion. CLEARLY, as a mere second-year law student, I would NEVER be in a position to render an opinion as to your behavior or analyses. ...tee hee... I guess 52year-old, second-year law students are different. I swear...you are addicted to trying to demean others, which is sad considering your 'minority' background.

    Horsetrading does not occur.

    So you are saying my professor, who has first-hand knowledge from clerking at the SC (and the federal level), is being untruthful?

    Farkel...go chastise someone else. I'll write whatever I d*mn-well please on your topic; people are free to reply or not. Not too many people were interested in your topic anyway, so be glad were even posting on it. Otherwise, it would be buried about 10 pages back.

    And besides, this is related. It goes to how this branch of the government functions, which relates to how the US government functions as a whole.

  • dgp
    dgp

    Please stay on topic, folks. This is not a race to see who's the smartest, or (shudder) the most educated. The Constitution of the United States of America is the supreme law of the land and should be given the respect it deserves. THAT is my topic. If you agree, say so. If you don't, then also say so. Little governments are constantly passing laws that violate not only the Bill of Rights, but just about everything else in the Constitution, and somebodies need to say, "I'm mad as hell, and I can't take it anymore."

    Yeah. As Facebook would have it, I like this .

    Botch,

    Any people that controlled the land area that is now the United States was almost destined to become a great and wealthy power in the world with the kind of technology developed over the last 300 years. The US land mass is one of the greatest on the planet for economic development. Nothing in Latin America comes close, not even Brazil.

    Not to take away anything from the political and cultural foundations of the country which allowed the natural wealth to be used efficiently and to the greatest extent, but in terms of navigable rivers, arable land near those rivers, ports, distance from aggressor nations, and so on, the US is hard to top.


    My short comment is "no".

    First, you guys started out as meagre 13 colonies. There was not a government that initially controlled that mass of land or those resources. That came to happen little by little. Haiti was then the most prosperous colony in the American continent. When the US were only thirteen colonies, and Boston, for example, no more than a village, Santo Domingo, in the Dominican Republic, already had an university. The same is true of Lima, in Peru. Most independent observers of what the United States were at the time wouldn't have thought it would achieve what it achieved ("and so it came to pass", as in the Book of Mormon). Alexis de Tocqueville and the Count of Aranda DID see that, did understand why that would happen, but most other men of their time dismissed their opinions. The Count of Aranda suggested that the King of Spain gave autonomy to its possessions in the American continent and made them real political entities that would be able to contain the new nation. The King did not pay attention.

    This would seem like staying off-topic, (pace, Farkel) but I think it needs to be said to add a little outside perspective. Please bear with me.

    Immigrants do not go to poor lands where they have no opportunities. People left their lands for the United States because they did find opportunities there. Immigrants also moved in large numbers to Brazil (particularly the south of it), Mexico, Cuba, Uruguay and Argentina. But, why didn't they prosper as much in those lands? Why didn't they move there in such numbers? Why was it that Argentina, a nation that was way more developed than either Canada or Australia in the 1920's, is now in its sorry state? Lest we forget, Argentina became white because of the large number of European immigrants. No one today finds a trace of the "pardos and morenos" (mixed-races and coloureds) that fought for their independence.

    The reason people moved to the US, in my humble opinion, is that they found a different legal environment in the United States, one where they could prosper. I think a lot of that had to do with American laws and the American way of life. There was also a way to prosper here if you used your mind and worked your ass. That was not true in the rest of the continent. Why is it that an American of Mexican descent who is in the space program said, when interviewed, that he would have stayed in his tomato field if he hadn't moved to the US?

    You could argue (pace, polite Canadians) that Canada isn't as strong or as powerful as the US because of its weather. But, why is it that, in recent times, Canada being a nicer country to live in, one where health care, for example, is free, immigrants still go to the United States over Canada?

    Why is is that emigrating to Russia isn't exactly in the minds of many people, but people do want to move to Norway?

    Why is is that the Jews who moved to Argentina, after the war, are just not as prosperous as their close relatives who moved to the US? Was it invariably the lazy and dumb brother who moved south?
    BACK TO THE MAIN TOPIC, I'm sure that many a group who finds it difficult to make amendments to the American constitution will try a less noticeable way to achieve the same end. They will find a way to make it look like they respect the letter of the constitution, but will betray its spirit. I think those changes could be made for the better, or for the worse, but you guys should keep an eye on all, however, because the way the constitution is amended should be important as well.

    This also makes me think that, from outside, we should have an interest on how these things happen in the United States. If you guys were not a democracy, we would all fare much worse. Many of us see the US as a land where no antidemocratic thing can happen. It's time we realize that's not the case.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Farkel,

    I agree with you! The problem that I see is that civics education is so poor in this country that few people have any idea what their rights are. Another problem is that people tend to see their immediate concern and don't consider the long term consequences of certain decisions. It takes a lot of courage to stand up in a rural, isolated community. My own experience shows that shouting something is a violation in Manhattan, D.C., Boston, or San Francisco gives you great acclaim. When I worked with the NJ Cvil Liberties Union (yes, actual litigation experience in several venues of repeat players before the Court), school prayer was flourishing in a remote part of NJ ten years after the Supreme Court decision halting it. I was young and shocked. The director explained that it was not widespread and bringing a case would result in death.

    Despite all the crass horse trading allegedly going on, there is a fairly reliable body of Supreme Court jurisprudence that people can turn to in order to understand their rights. When I was with the ACLU, some students handed out brochures of the Bill of Rights to the lunch time crowd and asked what they thought of them. The people were never told it was the Bill of Rights. Approximately fifty brochures were placed. Only four people thought such rights were a good idea. No one guessed that they were the Bill of Rights.

    I can't help but draw a parallel to the Witnesses. If Bible literacy were more widespread, the Witnesses would find meagre pickings. Almost all of my work with sophisticated clients. They know the parameters. Lawyers don't tell them what to do. The client wants information to ascertain their risks. This saviness translates to why corporate lobbyists are effective. I dream of regular citizens knowing their basic rights. Reutrning to the U.S. Supreme Court, many decisions are 5-4, reflecting ideologies. They are very bright. Unanimity evades them.

    It seems that most high school students can't name the century in which the Civil War occurred. Very few Americans understand what a federal system is. You don't need a legal education to know our most basic rights and governmental structure.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    school prayer was flourishing in a remote part of NJ ten years after the Supreme Court decision halting it. I was young and shocked. The director explained that it was not widespread and bringing a case would result in death.

    Ummmm... school prayer still flourishes... and CAN flourish. Just not in schools that accept/rely on government funding or participate in government-sponsored programs, like intramural sports, etc. For those that exist solely due to private funding... and they do exist... the decision... and law... has no bearing. Because just like Congress cannot establish religion... it cannot suppress it, either. All it can do is refuse to fund it.

    Peace.

    SA, on her own...

  • Band on the Run
  • Farkel
    Farkel

    I'm surprised at the bile some folks dish out, when all I wanted to say was that the supreme law of the land in the United States of America is the Constitution of the United States of America.

    When someone dishes out hate and bile from that simple fact, it says a lot about the person dishing it out.

    Farkel

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    JeffT,

    you wrote:

    :Beks, you might want to note that it was the liberals on the supreme court that decided to rewrite the definition of "public use" in the 5th Amendment in Kelo v New Haven. As far as those five justices were concerned if the Pfizer Corp wants to take your property it can get the government to do it for them. Again it was Clarence Thomas that noted that in his dissenting opinion.

    You're wasting your time with Beks. It is a lost cause with that "person", but you were spot-on in the Kelo decision.

    The Supreme Court deftly re-wrote the Bill of Rights by changing the phrase "public use" to mean "public good." "Public use" is a park or a sidewalk, a bridge, a road. In short, anything the public can "use" as the word says.

    "Public good" can mean any freaking thing a corrupt or wannabe corrupt government can say it means. It loses ALL meaning when it becomes a piece of putty for a government to define it anyway it wants.

    This decision was one of the most egregious decisions in my lifetime, and I weep over it.

    Senator "Clem" from some chicken-shit little berg sees a nice house on a lake, and says to his cousin "Jeb": "Hey! See that there house over yonder by the lake? Know what? We can take over that there house and pay them some taxpayer money and make it a retreat for our semi-annual vacations."

    Jeb says: "How can you do that, Clem?"

    Clem: "It's for the public good. It is good for the public that we have a retreat next to a lake, Jeb. When we can relax by the lake, it's good for the public because we can do a better job after we've relaxed by the lake for a few weeks."

    Jeb: "Yeah. Thank goodness for the United States Constitution, which gives us the power to do shit like that, and thank God for the Supreme Court, which is incapable of even understanding the meaning of the most simple of words in the Bill of Rights. If they can make the word "use" mean "good", I can make the word "right" mean "privelege!" Oh, wait! They've already done that! They make people qualify to register their guns which they already have the right to keep and bear! If they have to qualify to bear arms and their Government can deny them bearing of arms if they have no criminal record, then the Government has stolen that right and made it a "privilege", with the Government a sole-decider where they can keep and bear arms or not."

    Jeb: "God! I just LOVE America"

    Farkel

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