In Orange County, California, it is illegal to hold a religious meeting in your home.

by What-A-Coincidence 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • What-A-Coincidence
    What-A-Coincidence

    http://www.infowars.com/california-city-closes-down-bible-study-in-private-home/

    In Orange County, California, it is illegal to hold a religious meeting in your home.

    This is what Chuck and Stephanie Fromm, of San Juan Capistrano, discovered when they were fined $300 earlier this month for holding a Bible study class on their property.

    Officialdom in the county said the couple were singled out because it is considered illegal to hold “a regular gathering of more than three people” on private property. Officials stated that the Fromms require a license to hold meetings in their home.

    San Juan Capistrano authorities claim home Bible study is not allowed because it is a “church,” and churches require a Conditional Use Permit (CUP) in residential areas.

    The Fromms face additional fines of $500 per meeting for any further “religious gatherings” in their home, according to the Pacific Justice Institute.

    The city’s action is a brazen violation of the First Amendment, which guarantees free worship without government intervention.

    PJI and the Fromms plan to appeal a decision made by the city to uphold the fine and restriction to the California Superior Court in Orange County, according to KCOY 12 News, a Fox affiliate.

    Ironically, the city of San Juan Capistrano was founded as a mission in the late 1700s by Catholic priest Junipero Serra. A local chapel established by Serra is the oldest standing building in California.

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    : San Juan Capistrano authorities claim home Bible study is not allowed because it is a “church,” and churches require a Conditional Use Permit (CUP) in residential areas.

    Well, they are a pack of idiots. The 1st amendment right to peacebly assemble, does not include any restrictions. If the government thinks they can tell you what you may peaceable assemble about, then it is not a right. It is a privilege.

    The San Juan Capistrano authorities should be impeached and then summarily shot.

    Farkel

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    The city’s action is a brazen violation of the First Amendment, which guarantees free worship without government intervention.

    I don't think the 1st Amendment guarantees NO government intervention, dear WAC (peace to you!). Otherwise, there shouldn't have been a problem with (and thus, an attempted intervention by a U.S. Senator in)... the whole Jim Jones/Jamestown matter... which actually occurred in an entirely different country (Guyana) but involved U.S. citizens.

    This matter was discuss on another thread (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/216022/1/You-can-be-fined-for-holding-Bible-studies-in-your-home-in-California) and what some don't understand (and was brought out there) is that the government DOES have the right to zone. Which it did in this case. They are not saying the Frommes can't believe what they want... or even practice their religion. They're saying they can't hold "regular gatherings" of more than three people in their home... without a permit. Here, a "conditional use" permit... which is required for all businesses (that have clients/customers coming to the site) in a residential zone. Since the meetings are held in the Frommes home, they could be denied a permit; however, the article doesn't indicate that but that they have not even APPLIED for one. Now, if they APPLY... and are DENIED... then they might have a "case" because the county board of supervisors/votes COULD issue one.

    Since the government can't actually say what constitutes a religion (they have tried, but so far are only able to do so to the extent of controlling tax-exempt status)... how can they say that folks getting together to observe OTHER "religious" practices, say, sacrificing some chickens... or dogs... or both... in the backyard (which, by the way, many asian immigrants used to do in the late 80's or so...) is illegal? How do you then stop the "partiers" et al., who SAY they're "practicing [THEIR] religion"? What about the "holy rollers"... whose loud singing and tambourine playing, etc.? Can you place a "noise" control on them... without violating THEIR "religious freedom" ("Your Honor, we're told in the Bible to 'make a joyful NOISE to God' and your injunction will violate our 1st Amendment RIGHT to freedom of religion!").

    I agree that folks should be able to come together for "fellowship" in their homes... from time to time. Doing it "regularly", I'm not so sure. I own my own home... and I didn't buy it next to a church... nor do I want to live next to one. So, okay, maybe they're not singing hymns... but what's to stop them if they decide to do so? Or... what's to stop the guy down the street from actually having, say, 50 people regularly come for a Bible study, etc., in HIS home? How can you say he can't... yet, these folks can have "regular" meetings? Will not putting an "attendance" restriction fall under violation of HIS freedom of religion (to "not forsake the gathering of yourselves together")?

    Almost every business run from a home requires some kind of permit if customers/clients are going to come to the home (just having an office is usually exempt). I truly do not think this is an attack on religion... but on commercial activity being conducted without a permit... and in a residential location.

    But the MAIN problem that I see... is insurance. If something happened in the Frommes home to any one of the attendees... and these are "regular" attendees at a "religious" gathering... the insurance provider MAY take their presence out of the mere "guest" category... and if so, I highly doubt that their homeowners' insurance would cover any injuries... because folks are attending an illegal (non-permitted) meeting. Leaving any injured/victims not only vulnerable... but probably a-out.

    Because being able to get INSURANCE... or at least give victims some legal recourse if/when injurd... is the underlying reason WHY permitting for "regular" meetings... is required: so that your INSURANCE carrier is aware... and put on notice if something "happens." And something always tends to "happen," doesn't it... when there's no permit.

    The government isn't always bad, dear one. Sometimes, they really do have regulations that intend to protect people (and yes, raise revenue, I do not deny).

    Again, peace to you!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • ssn587
    ssn587

    from my understanding (listened to the local news) they were fined because the amount of people attending these "so called Bible studies" was high 20 people in some instances, which while parked in the neighborhood impinged upon space available for local residents. Zoning laws may have also been a factor. The lone factor was not a bible study it was amount of people who were attedning there. Wife and Husband both had differng bible studies on different days (i suppose).

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    I looked up their legal representation, the Pacific Justice Institute (peace to you all!)... and I don't know whether we should applaud... or run. I immediately thought of the WTBTS lawyers, and so...

    Wonder, given their "mission/purpose"... whether they would step up and help anyone HERE with a need for legal advice/case re the WTBTS? I sort of doubt it, but JWs are not necessarily popular among fundamentalists... and these folks SCREAM fundamentalism.

    I understand how folks think there is too much government... and perhaps there is in many areas. We always expect the government to step in and "protect" us, though, don't we... from any manner of harm, including fraud. Yet, we accept religions' fraudulent conduct all the time.

    I can almost promise you folks, though, that the Frommes received some kind (if not several) notices... before they were fined. Due process would have required it; otherwise, the court HAS to throw the County levy out.

    Ennywho... again, peace to you all!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • VM44
    VM44

    This may be one reason why The Watchtower discontinued the book study being held at homes.

    They did not want to get involved with the local zoning regulations.

  • HintOfLime
    HintOfLime

    Sounds like dumbasses needed a shuttle bus.

    Should the local Dungeons and Dragons RP freaks be allowed to suck up all the parking spaces on a block?

    Nope.

    Should the local bible freaks?

    Nope.

    Work out your parking problems and shut the hell up. Little cry-babies.

    - Lime

  • DesirousOfChange
    DesirousOfChange

    OH MY GOD!

    Does this mean a person could not hold an Amway meeting each Wed night in their home?

    OR, does it ONLY apply to religious meetings?

    A good ACLU lawyer is going to tear Orange County a new @$$hole and hopefully the Fromms will end up with LOT$ of CA$H $ETTLEMENT for all this overbearing govenement crap!

    DOC

  • mrmusicmr
    mrmusicmr

    Yup, that's true. A good lawyer should do that.

  • Berengaria
    Berengaria
    Does this mean a person could not hold an Amway meeting each Wed night in their home?

    Apparently not if more than three people regularly attend.

    Good luck OC!!!

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