The New Testament in Plain English and John 1:1

by Wonderment 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

Diest

I like and the word was an ectoplasm LOL. Makes me think of Slimer
Wonderment

erbie said:
We know that the Hebrew Scriptures make it clear that Jehovah, or YHWH, is the only true God. Indeed, he says 'other than me there are none'.
Absolutely right!
If there is only one true God, and all others are false, then the Watchtower is saying that Jesus is a false god.

A Commentary on the Gospel of John, by Ernst Haenchen says:
John 1:1: “and divine (of the category divinity) was the Logos” - “In order to avoid misunderstanding, it may be inserted here that [theós] and [ho theós] (‘god, divine’ and ‘the God’) were not the same in this period. Philo has therefore written: the [lógos] means only [theós] (‘divine’) and not [ho theós] (‘God’) since the logos is not God in the strict sense. Philo was not thinking of giving up Jewish monotheism. In a similar fashion, Origen, too, interprets: the Evangelist does not say that the logos is ‘God,’ but only that the logos is ‘divine.’ In fact, for the author of the hymn, as for the Evangelist, only the Father was ‘God’ (ho theós; cf 17:3); ‘the Son’ was subordinate to him (cf. 14:28). […] It was quite possible in Jewish and Christian monotheism to speak of divine beings that existed alongside and under God but were not identical with him. Phil 2:6-10 proves that. In that passage Paul depicts just such a divine being, who later became man in Jesus Christ, and before whom every knee will one day bow. But it should be noted that the Son will eventually return all authority to the Father (1 Cor 15:28), so that his glory may be complete. Thus, in both Philippians and John 1:1 it is not a matter of a dialectical relationship between two-in-one, but of a personal union of two entities...” […] [theós] is not the same thing as [ho theós] (‘divine’ is not the same thing as ‘God’). […] When Bultmann objects that one should then expect theios (‘divine’) instead of [theós] (‘god’) he overlooks the fact that theios says less than what is here affirmed of the Logos and would either make use of a literary Greek entirely foreign to the Gospel of John, or express a different meaning. (Ernst Haenchen, A Commentary on the Gospel of John [Das Johannese vangelium. Ein Kommentar] . John 1, translated by Robert W. Funk, pp. 108-111.)
GOrwell

Of what God was, the Word was as well. End of story.
ProdigalSon

How the heck did my link end up at the top of the page outside the posts??
Let's try this again....
The Past Lives of Jesus According To Edgar Cayce
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen049.html
Band on the Run

The Gospel of John is a theological gospel, more concerned with theology than relaying the "historical Jesus." It is not a Gnostic gospel per se or we would not have it in the canon. Gnosticism was one of many variants of Christianity. Christianity in its earliest form was not Gnostic, but deeply rooted within Judaism. It is a fallacy to quote the Kaballah or simply say John is Gnostic. It has a Gnostic flavor but Gnosticism was suppressed.
We don't have gospels of only one type, such as Gnostic or traditional. Barriing such a find someplace, we will never know the earlier drafts of John, if any. Gnosticism helped define the traditional church by forcing it to define what was proper thought. Gnosticism catered to elites and a belief in a bad creation,a belief generally opposed to Jewish main thought. Supression does not mean it was more than a minority view. Certainly, it is an interesting view.
I'd say categorizing John is much more complex.
Perry

John 1: 1 is in perfect harmony with the rest of the NT:
Jesus is the Creator:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. - Collosians 1
Jesus is God:
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. - Hebrews 1
Jesus is God:
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Jesus is God:
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 ° His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore
Wonderment

Perry:
I see that you quote Col 1 showing, that by Christ all things were created by him. Strange, that you think that Christ created everything (and the first human pair?). Yet, Christ himself said that ‘He [God] created them, male and female.' (Mt 19:4. Compare with Mk 10:6) Why did Christ say "He" instead of "me," or "I"? Furthermore, the Greek word for "by" can be equally rendered "through," where Christ is shown as the mediating agent of creation.
Hebrews 1: is shown by your reference as Christ being addressed as "God." Can I remind you that bible versions are not unanimous with that. Some bible versions say: "God is your throne...", which changes the thought.
1 Timothy 3:16 is quoted where it says that "God is manifest in the flesh." Notwithstanding, many versions show the preferred reading, "He was manifested in the flesh" with the obvious reference to Christ. See The Living Translation, Contemporary English Version, and others.
You said: "John 1: 1 is in perfect harmony with the rest of the NT."
I agree.Ernst Haenchen points out the following:
Wonderment

Ernst Haenchen quote: In fact, for the author of the hymn, as for the Evangelist, only the Father was ‘God' (ho theós; cf 17:3); ‘the Son' was subordinate to him (cf. 14:28). [...] It was quite possible in Jewish and Christian monotheism to speak of divine beings that existed alongside and under God but were not identical with him. Phil 2:6-10 proves that. In that passage Paul depicts just such a divine being, who later became man in Jesus Christ, and before whom every knee will one day bow. But it should be noted that the Son will eventually return all authority to the Father (1 Cor 15:28), so that his glory may be complete. Thus, in both Philippians and John 1:1 it is not a matter of a dialectical relationship between two-in-one, but of a personal union of two entities..." [...] [theós] is not the same thing as [ho theós] (‘divine' is not the same thing as ‘God'). See full quote above.

Perry

I see that you quote Col 1 showing, that by Christ all things were created by him. Strange, that you think that Christ created everything (and the first human pair?). Yet, Christ himself said that ‘He [God] created them, male and female.'

Both statements are true. Christ is of the same essence of God just as God is of the same essence as the Son. They have to be in order for the bible to be true. It is the same as saying she pinched "me". Or, she pinched my arm. My arm is both something I posess and me at the same time. So, both are perfectly appropriate figures of speech.

Further, many millions of Christians reject the 1% disagreeing minority texts promoted by the occultists Westcott and Hort and only accept the 99% body of texts that are in agreement with each other. Here's a few other differences as well:

SCRIPTURE	KJV	NASB	NIV	NWT
1 Cor. 15:47	The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.	the first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.	The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.	the first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven
Zech 12: 9,10 (Jehovah is speaking)	and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son	so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son	They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child	and they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son];
Micah 5: 2 (Jesus is from everlasting…before time)	Bethlehem…out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting	Bethlehem…From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity	Bethlehem…out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times	Beth´le•hem … from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.
Daniel 3:25 (The Son of God made occasional appearance in the OT)	the Son of God	a son of the gods	a son of the gods	a son of the gods
I Timothy 3:16	God was manifest in the flesh	He who was revealed in the flesh	He appeared in a body	He was made manifest in the flesh
Acts 3:13, 26	his Son Jesus	His Servant Jesus	His Servant Jesus	His Servant Jesus
Philippians 2:6 (Jesus did not think that he was robbing God by being his equal)	thought it not robbery to be equal with God	did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped	did not consider equality with God something to be grasped	gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God
Acts 8:37	that Jesus Christ is the Son of God	omitted (marginal note)	omitted (footnote)	omitted
John 6:69	thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God	You are the Holy One of God	You are the Holy One of God	You are the Holy One of God
John 9:35	Son of God	Son of Man	Son of Man	Son of Man
Matthew 20:20	worshipping him	bowing down	kneeling down	doing obeisance
Matthew 19:17	And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God	"Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good	"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good.	“Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is that is good.
Hosea 13: 4 (was isn’t the same as is)	Yet I am the LORD thy God… for there is no saviour beside me	Yet I {have been} the LORD your God… For there is no savior besides Me	"But I am the Lord your God… You shall acknowledge … no Savior except me	“But I am Jehovah your God …and there was no savior but I
John 4:42 (Both Jehovah and Christ are the only "saviour” – See above)	this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world	this One indeed is the Savior of the world	this man really is the savior of the world	this man is for a certainty the savior of the world
Romans 1:3	Jesus Christ our Lord	omitted	omitted	Lord Jesus Christ
Ephesians 3:14	of our Lord Jesus Christ	omitted	omitted	omitted
I Thess. 2:19	our Lord Jesus Christ	our Lord Jesus	our Lord Jesus	our Lord Jesus
I Thess. 3:11	our Lord Jesus Christ	Jesus our Lord	our Lord Jesus	our Lord Jesus
II Thess. 1:8	our Lord Jesus Christ	our Lord Jesus	our Lord Jesus	our Lord Jesus
Ephesians 3:14	of our Lord Jesus Christ	omitted	omitted	omitted
Luke 24:52	they worshipped him	after worshiping Him	they worshiped him	they did obeisance to him
Hebrews1: 5,6 (worshipping anything other than God is idolatry)	Thou art my Son… And let all the angels of God worship him.	YOU ARE MY SON… “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."	"You are my Son…Let all God's angels worship him."	You are my son; …“And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”
Hebrews 1:8 (See Ps. 45:6)	But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever	But of the Son He says, YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER	But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever	But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever (original passage in Psalms was perverted to support this one)
John 14:28	my Father	the Father	the Father	the Father
Philippians 4:13	through Christ	through Him	through Him	by virtue of him
Acts 7:59,60	Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit he…cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.	he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus receive my spirit”! he… cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!"	Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” he cried out, …"Lord, do not hold this sin against them	he made appeal and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”… he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.”
Acts 20: 28 The Christian God bleeds	feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.	shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood	Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood	shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]
Titus 2:13 (God himself is our savior)	Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us	looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us footnote disclaimer	while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us	while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus, who gave himself for us

SCRIPTURE	KJV	NIV	NWT
Revelation 1: 7,8 (reference to Matt. 24:30 & Mark 13:26) (Jesus returns with the clouds, he is the Almighty)	Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, …I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, … saith the Lord, … the Almighty.	Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, … I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God… the Almighty	Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, …“I am the Al´pha and the O•me´ga,” says Jehovah God, the Almighty.”
Revelation 1: 10-17 The Son of Man is the First and the Last, he is also the Alpha and Omega,	I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book,… And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw … one like unto the Son of man, … And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last	On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, which said: "Write on a scroll what you see… and I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw …someone "like a son of man," … When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last	By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, saying: “What you see write in a scroll… And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me, and, having turned, I saw… someone like a son of man,… And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last
Rev. 22;12-16	And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last… I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches	"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End… "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches	“‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Al´pha and the O•me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end… “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things for the congregations

Souder

The New Testament in Plain English and John 1:1

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