Whatever you do, arrive at 1914

by Doug Mason 18 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Quendi

    The real problem with the WTS interpretation of the "tree dream" is that it doesn't take Daniel's explanation at face value. At Daniel 4:20, 22 it is written, " 'The tree that you beheld, that grew great and became strong...it is you, O king, because you have grown great and bnecome strong.' " It doesn't get any simpler than that. This was a vision that was fulfilled wholly, only, and solely on Nebuchadnezzar himself. That was also the king's understanding as he writes at Daniel 4:37, "Now I, Nebucahdnezzar, am praising and exalting and glorifying the King of the heavens, because all his works are truth and his ways are justice, and because those who are walking in pride he is able to humiliate." Years later, Daniel repeats that understanding to Nebuchadnezzar's successor Belshazzar, telling him, " 'But when [Nebuchadnezzar's] heart became haughty and his own spirit became hard, he was brought down from the throne of his kingdom, and his own dignity was taken away from him.' " --Daniel 5:20

    That puts paid to the notion that the tree somehow represents God's kingdom in any sense, typical or antitypical. Furthermore, the length of the seven times cannot be computed by using the book of Revelation. In the Revelation, John is specifically told how long the "time, times, and half a time" are. He is giving the equivalent measures of 1.260 days and forty-two months. Daniel was told no such thing. So there is absolutely no basis for connecting Nebuchadnezzar's dream in the sixth century BC with twentieth century events. That is only wishful thinking based on shifting interpretations of men. It is not based on sound biblical hermeneutics and exegesis.

    As for the "day for a year" interpretation, why is the WTS itself so inconsistent on its application of this so-called "rule"? It wants to use it for the seven times in Daniel chapter 4. But when other time spans are mentioned elsewhere in Daniel's writings, namely the 1,290 days; the 1,335 days; and the 2,300 days suddenly these become literal days and not years! Doug Mason is entirely right to state the WTS interpretation of Daniel 4 should be "shoved into the bottom drawer". While they're at it, they should get into that drawer themselves and 'never see daylight again.'


  • leonbus23
  • Lore

    Good post Quendi!

    That was about as succinct and to the point as possible. We need to print that post out and paste it in the first page of all the Daniels Prophecy and Revelations Climax books.

  • leonbus23

    thanks doug.

  • sd-7

    This reminds me of a T-shirt I have. It takes several numbers mentioned in 'Star Wars' and combines them in such a way that "52577", or May 25, 1977, is the end result, said result being the date the movie first came out.

    It goes to show that when you desire a specific end result, you can find numbers from anywhere and put them together in such a way as to convince yourself it's relevant.

    Nebuchadnezzar acknowledges that 'the Most High is Ruler' amongst mankind in Daniel 4 and has it proclaimed throughout his kingdom. This clearly shows that God's sovereignty had NOT been removed--and indeed, could not be removed--by man. That really means there's no reason to even start trying to calculate anything. To do so is to ignore the fact that God saw fit to humble this man and force him to recognize God's ruling authority, and to imply, at least, that what God did had no bearing at all on anything.

    It just gets more and more unpleasant the more you think about it.


  • Quendi

    Thanks for your kind words, Lore. I don't pretend to be a Bible scholar or expert, but I am grateful that I have read the works of real scholars and thought carefully over what they have written. That's more than what the WTS writers can claim to have done.


  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    Daniel 2: A dream shows that Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom (head of gold) will be replaced with subsequent kingdoms.

    Daniel 3: A huge image entirely of gold (Babylon will never be replaced).

    Daniel 4 (v 30 especially): Nebuchadnezzar boasts that Babylon's glory is solely due to him. Story ends with Nebuchadnezzar acknowledging the supreme role of the Hebrews' God.

    There is thus a continuing theme, a composite objective of these stories. They employ mythical elements (a fire that burns selectively?) and other elements that better fit a superstitious culture.

    To whom were this set of stories addressed? What message of comfort or divine purpose did they contain? The messages had to have meaning for the community they were being addressed to, where the circumstance confronting Daniel and his cohorts was being repeated. Such considerations are among several that point to these stories being collected, assembled, and promoted during the persecution of the 2nd century BCE.

    These stories had meaning to the intended audience without raising the suspicions of their terrifying persecutors. Understanding the 2nd century context of the book of Daniel provides meaning to its contents.


  • me4jw

    Wow, Doug .. you really give the haters what they want to hear. But that's not how the Witnesses explained it to me. I haven't fully grasped it all yet, but I'm sure you making Jehovah's Witnesses out to appear unknowlegable and uninformed is just your way of spreading the "buffalo chips." I think it's time for me to get more involved, for myself, but, also, perhaps it will at least slow down some of the lies and deceit spread throughout this website.

  • bob1999

    "But that's not how the Witnesses explained it to me."

    The Witnesses that you are talking to don't know.

    All of these thought processes at one time were used by the WTS to prove 1874 as the date of the presents of Christ.

    Ask them to explain that.

    1914 was, at that time, to be the end of Armagedden.

    The 1874 date, as the beginning of the presents of Christ, was taught all the way until 1929.

    Ask them to explain that.

    From 1952 until 1995 the WTS taught that some of the persons that were alive to see the events of 1914 would be alive when Armogedden started.

    Ask them to explain that.

    The Watchtower is a false prophet that demands it's followers believe those falsehoods or else be DFed and have their lives ruined.

    Yes, you could see this as hate.

    I think trying to get the truth out about how wrong the WTS is should be looked at as love.


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