Hi Druid. Your concepts and comparisons explains why you are agnostic. What happened to me was on the opposite end of the scale. I was very zealous when young and "made the truth my own" early on. I didn't fully trust the WTS and considered them just as a adjunct to worship, not the mediator. Then in 1992 I became one of the anointed and started having closer interaction with God, holy spirit and the angels. So my faith was finally CONFIRMED by the more direct interaction. Little did I know this would lead to my being chosen as the physical identity of Christ at the second coming. Of course, after that, God could hardly remain in the shadows, so I got a chance to have a personal interview with Jehovah. So there is zero doubt God exists and he's the same God of Moses and the Bible. In the meantime, I don't blame those who are atheists or agnostics, especially based on the comparisons they make. For instance, instead of building something simple like an ant hill that the wind also builds, why not use the example of a beehive and see how soon the wind will build a beehive with lots of honey in it. The comb cells are hexagons which is a specific shape and a very expedient dimension for use of space. So yes, I'm one of those Christians who look out and see the complexity of the world and know that evolution and atheism are profoundly ignorant concepts. Plus I have direct proof of God so there's no way I could become an agnostic now. Scientific deception are for those who love darkness and want to be deceived, in which case, God gives them plenty of rope to hang themselves if they want. Instead of dealing with something simplistic like an ant hill, try explaining how the wind accidentally created the ant itself. Does a random wind create living things? Thanks for sharing your experience. Regardless, you were affected by your college education and were convinced to doubt God. I stuck with God and God proved himself to me. But I wonder if going to college would have affected me as it did you? I think, not likely. That's because I wouldn't believe in evolution even if there was not God. It's just too stupid for me to imagine. LS
What do you think of this argument?
I got straight to the impossiblities of Noah's ark or the wise design of the terantula wasp that stings the spider and eats it alive. Why did God make them that way and why did Noah think it was necessary to bring them all aboard?
I think things are not as simple as evolution or creation, god, whatever. Hell, string theory, studies that this entire thing might be a hologram, etc. shed light on the fact that we know that we know nothing. In the end who cares. Live life because we eventually die.
If you're interested in logical philosphy on the subject, I recommend "How To Think About God" by Mortimer Adler. In the process of going over the logical possibilities, he also dispels some common bad attempts.
God proved himself to me
Why you and not me?
Maybe more would believe if he proved himself to others.
SERENITYNOW: Why you and not me? When Christ arrives his angels first seals the elect, which is 1,440,000. So they get an early confirmation by holy spirit and by the "sign of the son of man" of Jehovah's activities prior to Armageddon. So they get advanced confirmation of Jehovah's existence. This might in part be due to the intensity of Satan's propaganda against the existence of God or the truth of the Bible, such as all that information about how old the earth is and how old man is and evolution, etc. Some of this information might be convincing enough to even fool the elect into thinking the Bible is not true. So Jehovah simply provides them with the "sign of the son of man" (Matthew 24:29-30) and other signs of his existence via holy spirit. Sometimes Christ himself appears to them, depending upon the need. So "why not me?" first has to do with whether you are of the chosen elect or not. As you know, the "anointed" among Jehovah's witnesses always claim that they know of their heavenly calling via holy spirit. So they experience something different and more direct than those who are not chosen of the elect/anointed. One thing they all claim is that the bible seems different to them and it seems that it is talking directly to them. I experienced that same sense, that the Bible was written especially to me, particularly certain verses. So if you're of the elect, at this time, particularly since 1947, then you have several things that confirms for you that God is real and alive. The rest of the world don't experience this but will when Jehovah brings about Armageddon. At that point, when Jehovah sends angels to destroy the national governments, which means killing off the people who serve these governments and reject Christ's kingdom rule, then they will have their own direct proof of God. Keep in mind, the elect are only 1,440,000. The "144,000" are the 1/10th remnant who are natural Jews upon which pattern the Bride Class is built; 12 tribes, with 12,000 from each tribe. The other 90% are gentiles who become king-priests to rule with Christ for 1000 years on the earth. God provides them with direct proof to in part save them from worrying about anything Satan has provided to fool the rest of mankind, but also because they have certain duties involved with the pre-millennial world. So that's why I have direct proof of God before others, because I'm of the elect. But not to worry. Armageddon will soon be here and then all the world will know the god of the Bible is the true God, just as he showed all the Egyptians at the time of the Exodus. We're hoping the millennium will begin by December 21, 2012, so if that's the case, you'll have direct proof of God in less than 2 years! LS
Lars, I can see this thread is about to be totally derailed. Would you join me in a new thread?
Lars... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - the Bible god is a figment of some sheep porkers imagination. The ~2012 date may be accurate but this has nothing to do with your fairy god but cyclical nature. I am so going to laugh my ass off if something bad does go down, and the vast majority are waiting for Jehober to step in and he never shows. What a let down...
Excellent posts Druid. To comment on your second question rebuttal.
This: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/nogod.html was linked in another discussion and from a scientific point of view it give a plausible solution to how God can exist without being created.
Look under the heading "The Theodice Problem".
Here is some of the information. Read the rest at your leisure.
There is much evidence from both the Bible and from science that demonstrates God must exist and operate in dimensions of space and time other than those to which we are confined. God could not have created the universe if He were only a part of it. The Bible says the universe cannot contain Him (1).
According to particle physics and relativity, at least ten dimensions of space existed at the creation of the universe (2). Three of these dimensions (plus time) formed the space-time manifold that we can directly observe. The other six of these dimensions exist within the universe as incredibly compact dimensions of space. God must be able to operate in all of those ten dimensions plus more in order to have created the universe. A verse from the book of Hebrews suggests God created the universe out of some of the dimensions of space and time which are not visible to us (3).
The God of the Bible is invisible and cannot be seen except if He reveals Himself to us in a three-dimensional form that we can see. A being which exists in dimensions beyond our three spatial dimensions would be invisible to creatures (us) that can only exist in the confines of our universe (4).
Acting outside of time
The God of the Bible is described as omnipotent. If God were confined to three dimensions of space and one dimension of time, then He could be in only one place at one time. The God of the Bible is described as knowing all that we do (5). We can hide nothing from God. A three-dimensional God would not have the ability to see through walls (Can you?) and could not know what happens outside of his sight.
Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time (6). Not only space, but also time has a beginning - at the moment of creation. Studies in particle physics have shown that our dimension of time is really only half a dimension, since time can only move forward (7) (forget the time travel movies - this is scientifically impossible). If God existed in only one dimension of time, then He would have had to have been created at one point. The Bible says God was not created, but has existed from eternity past to eternity future. The Bible also suggests God created time and was acting before time began (8), confirming that God exists either outside of time altogether or in at least two dimensions of time. In addition, the Bible states God can compress or expand our time line (9), based upon what He wants to do. For God to turn a day into 1000 years and 1000 years into a day requires that He exist external to our dimension of time.
This web page (an Atheist one) has many fine articles that opened my eyes to the truth about many topics, including "Intelligent Design vs Evolution" and provides some examples of how complex the Universe isn't. It also asks how is it that beings supposedly created by God could have so many physical imperfections that cause us no end of pain. I won't link any articles as they are very long.
I'm not attempting to change your mind or argue with you. I'm simply sharing information from both sides of the fence to better arm you against critics. I myself am Agnostic bordering on Atheism. I'm not an Atheist merely because I have had some unusual experiences in my life that I haven't been able to find answers to as of yet. I donot however believe in the Bible. The truth-saves.com website (linked) gave some pretty good information to finally convince me (although I had been wavering on this topic for some time from my own research).
@Larsinger58 LOL Still think you're Jesus eh?