"I can live with doubt and uncertainty, and not knowing."

by leavingwt 26 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  talesin

  leaving,,, awesome vid

  Science (imo) exists because of our curiosity .... we MUST approach it with an open mind ... we're supposed to question, and also realize that the possibilities are ENDLESS....

  "a very fundamental part of my soul is to doubt and ask" -- quote from the vid, and a true scientist at heart, imho.

  This can be applied not only to religion, but to science as well,,, we must always question science --- eg, string theory,,, laughed at by the scientific community in the 50s,,, now exonerated as a viable theory.

  One of my favourite quotes EVER, from Walt Whitman ,,,

  This is what you shall do; Love the earth and sun and the animals, despise riches, give alms to every one that asks, stand up for the stupid and crazy, devote your income and labor to others, hate tyrants, argue not concerning God, have patience and indulgence toward the people, take off your hat to nothing known or unknown or to any man or number of men, go freely with powerful uneducated persons and with the young and with the mothers of families, read these leaves in the open air every season of every year of your life, re-examine all you have been told at school or church or in any book, dismiss whatever insults your own soul, and your very flesh shall be a great poem and have the richest fluency not only in its words but in the silent lines of its lips and face and between the lashes of your eyes and in every motion and joint of your body.

  tal
• 

  Judge Dread

  Nick,

  If you think that technology makes modern man so much better than those 'unwashed ancients' you better take a look around.

  As for how I live my life, it is with doubt, uncertainty and not knowing.

  Good day.

  JDW
• 

  Nickolas

  The ancient writers of the Bible would have considered a wheelbarrow a breathtaking example of emerging technology, but it is not so much technology that differentiates modern from ancient men, JD, it is scientific knowledge. Those men were hopelessly ignorant about virtually everything scientific and ascribed what they did not understand - disease, meterological, astrological and geological phenomena, plagues - to angels, demons and gods. They were an exceedingly superstitious lot who codified their superstitious beliefs into the Bible and the Qu'ran. They apparently did a good job because many of the people I see when I look around still subscribe to them. You might call them the modern unwashed.
• 

  Judge Dread

  but it is not so much technology that differentiates modern from ancient men, JD, it is scientific knowledge.

  Take technology away and see what you get.

  Have a nice life.

  JDW
• 

  bohm

  talesin:

  This can be applied not only to religion, but to science as well,,, we must always question science --- eg, string theory,,, laughed at by the scientific community in the 50s,,, now exonerated as a viable theory.

  like i wrote you on another thread where you said the same (did you see the post btw?), nobody knew about string theory in the 50s since it wasnt invented (ie. the various forms of string theory began to be examined) untill the 60s. I hope i dont come across as scoring easy points or something, its since you wrote in that other threat that scientists only care about getting their papers published that I think you might be pleasantly surpriced by how the scientific community work.

  While we are on the topic, can you give an example of a notable high-energy scientist who laughed at string theory? I cant.... then again, i am not very much into the historical context around string theory.

  Is it possible you may have misunderstood various remarks along the lines of how difficult it is to validate string theory experimentally, or that string theory allow for so many potential universes that finding our universe is described by a particular set of laws which fit a particular set of parameters for a string theory is not easy to interpret?

  Oh, thanks for posting the vid. Stuff like this should be obligatory viewing! :-D.
• 

  sizemik

  Loved every sentiment expressed . . .

  Remarkable how the same approach is reflected in the words of Albert Einstein . . .

  A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.

  If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?

  It was the experience of mystery - even if mixed with fear - that engendered religion.

  Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.

  The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing.

  The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science.

  The process of scientific discovery is, in effect, a continual flight from wonder.

  To raise new questions, new possibilities, to regard old problems from a new angle, requires creative imagination and marks real advance in science.
• 

  Nickolas

  Take away technology and you have a bunch of smart people who will recreate it and improve it in the process.

  Technology is just the product of understanding, and this is what differentiates modern human beings from those who occupied this planet millenia ago. Understanding the mechanics behind how and why things work and understanding why things behave the way they do. We also have a better understanding of our context in the universe. The paradox of understanding is the greater it is the greater the scope of what we do not understand and this is one of Feynman's points. The ancients who wrote the Bible and Qu'ran did not doubt. They were certain that what they believed and what was true were the same thing. I've said this before but the facility with which our context is dismissed warrants repeating it. The context of the ancients who wrote the Bible and Qu'ran was exceedingly narrow and this is reflected in the words they wrote.

  All Christian and Muslim religions are based 100% on their religious books. Dilutions have happened, yes, but the holy books themselves have carried the two main religions through the ages and all schisms and fractions have been on the basis of mere interpretations of them - or in the case of the Bible and Constantine, what was allowed to be included in the Book and what was not allowed. The clearly ludicrous stuff was thrown out and no modern Christian gives them any credence, in much the same way that modern Christians give no credence to parts of the Bible they throw out themselves.

  It comes down to what you are prepared to believe, what you are prepared to allocate to uncertainty and what you are prepared to allocate to cognitive dissonance. There are many people on this board who believe that Jesus is Lord but who dismiss as complete fiction entire parts of the Bible. And different people reject different parts, but they nevertheless hold fast to the central pretext because to do otherwise would introduce doubt and uncertainty and not knowing, and that is something they can't live with. One might ask them at what point do you stop hiving off and rejecting as fiction parts of the Bible and keeping the rest? Where do you stop? At what point is it that so much of the story has been cut away that the rest of it collapses? The answer is fundamentalism, because without the acceptance of the whole story to support it, it all comes tumbling down. It is what keeps the Watchtower in business.

  In the end it begs the question what keeps you believeing in Yahweh or Allah (certainty, knowing) when there is so much evidence that neither exists?