Running into a brick wall- conversations without logic

Joey Jo-Jo

I had this experience with a family member, lets say you say something against the witnesses doctronic and they dont say anything back, you ask them why are you not replying and they say "well you dont believe in us anymore".

What should I say back, something that wont offend them but goes straight to the point, you see they dont want to use their brains, they just want to listen at their halls about the end and apostates and how special they are and how false the rest of the world is and how they are the only true religion that follow the commandment to preach. But it does not matter what I say, doesn't matter how big it is it seems to have the reverse effect, it was alot easier before but now a conversation comes which they dont like they shun my conversation, yet they show me love, they dont touch whats the big issue, the big problem which is communication, and they maybe expected me to wake up, go back to the hall like nothing ever happen, like preaching is only for people who like what they hear. Im babling on but you get the idea.

ziddina

Urk! That is a hard one...

That sort of comment gets my inner 'smart-aleck' riled up something fierce!!

"Well, you don't believe in us anymore..."

Ex-CUUUUSE me??? Of COURSE I believe in YOU - you're right there!! I can touch you, I can see you, I can smell what you had for dinner - er, maybe you'd better not use that LAST one, but...

I can touch, see, interact with YOU, so of COURSE I still believe in YOU. [then, with the saddest face you can muster...] But you don't believe in ME, do you...??

Like I said, my inner smart-aleck... And it's NEVER any help in a situation...

Joey Jo-Jo

Soeey, what I meant was they are saying "offcourse we dont want to talk about it, you no longer believe in the truth"

ziddina

Yes, Joey, I caught that...

Perhaps I should have stated more clearly that I would use misdirection and 'throw' their objections back onto THEM - into 'their' side of the tennis court, so to speak.

Throwing them off-balance by turning their objection around and directing it back at them, positioning myself as the "wounded victim" in the conversation...

Ah, did that make sense?

Zid

Black Sheep

Don't start anything.

That way, they are the one that put their foot in it and lost some control by doing that.

Now that they started something, you have control.

Don't lose it.

Control

Now start asking them questions that draw them to the conclusions that you want them to reach.

When they start squirming and want to change the subject .......... you have the right subject.

NEVER let them change it, even just an eensy weensy bit.

Every time they do a spiel, ask yourself, "What did that have to do with my question?"

If it was just a subtle change of subject, restate the question without rephrasing it.

Accusations of trying to fool you by changing the subject are warrented and necessary. Do it every time until they repent their evil ways

The biggy is not telling them anything they didn't already know. Work with their own knowledge and their own books Force them to make the statements, force them to clarify their statements.

As long as you don't make any statements, it doesn't matter if you make a mistake. You were just asking

Make them make the statements, and the mistakes, and then apologise and explain how their mistakes came about.

Cheers

Chris

ambersun

"well you dont believe in us anymore".

Joey, believe me I fully understand your frustration. It is almost impossible to have a healthy debate with a JW who is of the us and we mentality as they are totally unable to think as individuals, only as part of the rank and file as a whole, the way they have been trained to think, therefore not believing in us is the same as not believing in the WTS and its teachings.

Believe me, I know this first hand as most of my family are JWs. Usually they will only answer in terms of us and we. Any question designed to lead to a healthy debate between two reasonably intelligent individuals will just result in a we don't do this, or we don't celebrate that or I have even had one relative say "Ambersun, you know jolly well what the answer is, as you used to be one of us". End of discussion (sigh)

ambersun

they maybe expected me to wake up, go back to the hall like nothing ever happen

I can also relate to this. We completed our fade over 20 years ago but only recently my BIL asked my husband if he was going to start going back to the meetings any time soon and seemed unable to understand why the answer was "no" and how we can be genuinely happy living without 'The Truth'.

On the plus side, and it is a BIG plus, at least all our JW relatives are lovely, warm hearted people who have not shunned us, so we can be very grateful for that. Our hearts go out to the poor souls who have not been so lucky and have lost all family contact. Just thinking about that helps us to cope with the inevitable WT speak that invides the conversations whenever we are with them.

jgnat

I'll go back to Steve Hassan's concepts here. The cultist has been programmed not to listen. Having a conversation with the cultist persona, when you are labelled as an outsider, is no satisfaction.

However, there is the natural person subsumed in there somewhere, and if you can have short conversations with them, you can have a genuine, two-way conversation. The best example I have so far is a conversation I had with two sisters at a District Assembly at lunch. We talked about all the marvels of modern technology, coming up with many examples. Then one sister snapped back in to her cultist personality, "But of course there will be even more marvellous wonders in paradise." I goggled at her and the conversation died.

Riiight. Divinely built I-Pads. I can see it now.

I don't bother rebutting the cultist. I look for opportunities to talk to the genuine person.

Mad Sweeney

It is important not to let on that you'll never go back. Keep that hope alive. Use it in the way Black Sheep describes. Act like you WANT to believe but you have questions that need answering. Approach them with the attitude that you love them and they love you so please can they help you see where you've gone wrong. Don't let them change the subject or pass you on to an elder/pioneer/anyone else. You are only willing to speak with them. Then don't tell them anything. Just ask questions and lead them to the correct conclusions that way.

It is hard because so many JWs are intellectually lazy (either naturally or indoctrinated laziness) and don't really know the answers to questions that cause doubt - they're trained to avoid those or just look up an article on the CDRom.

It isn't easy to get through. It takes patience and time.

Good luck!

Quandry

But it does not matter what I say,

Then you are the one getting frustrated.

The upside is that you said they show you love. Why not just "agree to disagree" and leave the topic alone? If you have family that doesn't shun, you are way ahead of many on this forum.

One poster said that the biggest way to get back at JWs is by living a healthy, successful, full life without them, and it is so true.

What they expect is for us to crawl into a corner and have no life without them.

Running into a brick wall- conversations without logic

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