Heavenly Hope

by Quendi 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Quendi

  Here are some questions I want to pose to our friends here. Does a person have to be baptized to go to heaven and if one must get baptized, how is this to be arranged and by whom?

  The reason I ask this is many here have professed their belief that they are part of the Body of Christ, should partake of the emblems whenever they celebrate the Lord's Supper, and will go to heaven after they die if they have been faithful. Personally, while I believe myself to be a Christian, I have no such beliefs about my destiny. I have not been "born again", do not entertain the hope of going to heaven after my death, and so do not celebrate the Lord's Supper. I still believe that humans can inherit everlasting life on Earth in a physical body. That destiny would not require baptism in my belief. Many contributors here may feel otherwise.

  Now, if baptism is indeed necessary before one can be "anointed" with holy spirit and receive the heavenly calling, what baptism is valid? For those who have left Jehovah's Witnesses and no longer have anything to do with the organization, how do they view their baptism as Witnesses? Is it valid? Those baptized before 1985 were baptized in "the name of the Father, Son, and holy spirit". Those immersed after that date were told that their baptism meant they had repented of their sins and were now prepared to follow the mandates laid down by "God's spirit-directed organization", something entirely different from what Jesus said.

  So would baptism as one of Jehovah's Witnesses make a person eligible to be anointed, or would another baptism be necessary? Who should baptize Christians? And if a person does not get baptized, can s/he still go to heaven after death? I don't want to start an argument with anyone. I'm simply interested in other people's views on this topic, and I eagerly await your comments.

  Quendi
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  Inkie

  Quendi:

  I write the following under the assumption that at some point you have been one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Please correct me if I err in this regard.) Not to be rude or disrespectful but, have you actually read the Bible, specifically the New Testament (Christian Greek Scriptures so-called)? The reason I ask you this question is because, all of your questions you ask here are pretty much answered in the reading of the NT. You have read the NT, yes? If you have done your own research, your own ‘searching the scriptures’ so to speak, you really don’t need to ask answers to your questions of any other human . You can read it for yourself and get the answers for yourself OR, better yet, you can go directly to the Lord and ask him. He himself will tell you also. Nonetheless . . . .

  There have been a number of baptisms mentioned in the Bible. The last two that I remember are “John’s baptism” in symbol of repentance for one’s sins, and the other the “baptism by holy spirit.” You ask:

  Does a person have to be baptized to go to heaven and if one must get baptized, how is this to be arranged and by whom?

  Answer: Yes. It is arranged by Jah and His Christ. Christ is the one that pours out holy spirit on you and thus baptizes you.

  The reason I ask this is many here have professed their belief that they are part of the Body of Christ,

  This is also true, many have. Just remember too that Christ said to beware of false christs and false prophets.

  should partake of the emblems whenever they celebrate the Lord's Supper,

  All should partake of the emblems. You have that correct.

  and will go to heaven after they die if they have been faithful.

  “Christians (those who have been anointed/baptized with ‘holy spirit’) who die rest in ‘sleep’ waiting for their Lord’s return, which is when they will be resurrected. They do not go to heaven when they die.

  Personally, while I believe myself to be a Christian,

  I understand that you believe this, however, your statement begs the question: Have you received the free gift of the holy spirit? If not, then you cannot be what the name Christian literally means: “Anointed Person.”

  I have no such beliefs about my destiny.

  Which is why I think you may be a ‘disciple of Christ’ rather than a “Christian.”

  I have not been "born again", do not entertain the hope of going to heaven after my death, and so do not celebrate the Lord's Supper.

  No Christian has yet been “born again.” That event is still future. As for the other things just mentioned above, they give credence that you are not yet a Christian in the defined meaning of the name.

  Now, if baptism is indeed necessary before one can be "anointed" with holy spirit and receive the heavenly calling, what baptism is valid?

  See answer above.

  For those who have left Jehovah's Witnesses and no longer have anything to do with the organization, how do they view their baptism as Witnesses? Is it valid?

  It is not.

  Those baptized before 1985 were baptized in "the name of the Father, Son, and holy spirit". Those immersed after that date were told that their baptism meant they had repented of their sins and were now prepared to follow the mandates laid down by "God's spirit-directed organization", something entirely different from what Jesus said.

  That is correct.

  So would baptism as one of Jehovah's Witnesses make a person eligible to be anointed,

  Yes and No. Everyone is ‘eligible’; no one is ‘eligible.’ (That all depends upon what you mean by ‘eligible.’) Being anointed by holy spirit is a free gift bestowed on one by God and Christ.

  or would another baptism be necessary?

  Baptism by/of the holy spirit.

  Who should baptize Christians?

  God and Christ baptize you.
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  VoidEater

  Does a person have to be baptized to go to heaven

  No. Whether you go to Heaven or not, I believe in Universal Reconciliation/Universal Salvation.

  ...and if one must get baptized, how is this to be arranged and by whom?

  It is irrelevent. But if you feel the desire, you should arrange it as you see fit.

  I still believe that humans can inherit everlasting life on Earth in a physical body.

  I don't, but it's not relevent.

  For those who have left Jehovah's Witnesses and no longer have anything to do with the organization, how do they view their baptism as Witnesses?

  Wet.

  Is it valid?

  It is irrelevent.

  So would baptism as one of Jehovah's Witnesses make a person eligible to be anointed, or would another baptism be necessary?

  That would be a pretty abstract discussion that presupposes there is an "anointed class". It presupposes a lot of framework (which I don't believe in).

  Who should baptize Christians?

  Anyone the Christian chooses.

  And if a person does not get baptized, can s/he still go to heaven after death?

  Baptism is irrelevent in my view.

  Why should you believe what anyone else has to say on this matter? If you are exiting the Witnesses, why replace the Witness belief with anyone else's belief but your own?

  Do you think humans go to Heaven sometimes, go to Earth for everlasting life sometimes?

  What do you think qualifies someone for one or the other of these destinations?

  Do you think there might be other fates awaiting humans?

  Why would there be different fates for different humans? Why would there be different classes of Christians?

  Why would you listen to one religion and not another?

  Why would you reject one religion and not another?

  What do you believe deep in your own heart? Where are you going, and what do you need to do to get there?
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  botchtowersociety

  Void's back. :-)
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  designs

  Where's Heaven?
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  discreetslave

  I have a similar question. Now that I realize WT is all wrong. Where & by who is a christian baptized can Jesus words regarding 2 or 3 being gathered in his name apply. I think if one was immersed and was sincere in there love of God & Christ that baptism is valid. That might be the key sincerity, faith in Christs sacrifice, & love of God. So one can chose to go to a mass baptism or have a small ceremony with friends & family at a body of water. The danger as many of us realized are groups that take advantage of a sacred occasion to demand total subservience like JW's.

  I was baptized as on of JW and I believed I was of the other sheep. When I got baptized I was dedicating myself to Jehovah thru Jesus sacrifice but I allowed their explanation of 1935 to influence me. Recently after lot's of prayer, Bible reading in the NT /Christian Scriptures, studying the Christ & the ransom I was born again. I realized that at the coming memorial I must partake. Today is the anniversary of my baptism and I don't feel it is null & void because of the wolves in sheeps clothing. MY baptism stemmed from a sincere desire to be a christian and serve God.

  My becoming anointed, having the heavenly hope, and being a faithful & discreet slave as an individual not part of a class led me to see the truth regarding the Watchtower organization.
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  Quendi

  I want to thank all who have commented thus far. There is indeed a wide range of beliefs on this topic, isn't there? Some of you have posed direct questions to me. I appreciate that and will get around to answering them soon. For now, let me say that I am very happy to be part of this discussion.

  Quendi
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  Ding

  I think that there is one hope, not two.

  Revelation 21 indicates that in the end, God will dwell on earth with His people.

  When that happens, the distinction between heaven and earth with be abolished.

  Redeemed ones will have physical bodies.

  I believe being born again is necessary to being a Christian (John 3:3; 1 Peter 1:3; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Romans 8:1-2).

  While water baptism is something Christians should undergo, I do not believe it is necessary for salvation.

  The thief whom Jesus promised paradise was not water baptized, nor had Cornelius been baptized at the time he received the Holy Spirit.
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  Kosonen

  Hi Quendi, I support totally the answer of discreetslave above, I would say the same. So if you have been baptized in the same way it is valid. I remember when I was baptized 1988 at age of 13, one of the questions befor baptism with the elders was from the Organization-book: What does it mean to be baptized in the name of Father and Son and holy spirit? So it had to be undertood to be approved for baptism. So I regarded and still regard that I was baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, even though just befor baptism at the convention they asked two other questions.

  And I defend the necessity of baptism, because Jesus told: Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, ... (Mathew 28:19) And therefor Cornelius was baptized, eventhough he had already got the holy spirit. In Acts 10 we read: Then Peter responded: 47 “Can anyone forbid water so that these might not be baptized who have received the holy spirit even as we have?” 48 With that he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

  And I see that you wish to become chosen by Good, or as we call it usually anointed. It is a good desire, actually Jehovah God has been since the first centry searching and inviting people to his heavenly kingdom. And he has not yet been able to get the full number of 144000 and therefor the heavenly hope is still open. And to me it seems that those who get anointed are more than usually God-minded people. Here are some scriptures showing what kind of persons are on the way to the Heavenly Kingdom. Jesus said: But from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it. (Matthew 11:12) So as Jesus says, you have to be pressing forward. That means you should not let the "organization" hinder you to speak about the truth as they say: Be quiet and wait for Jehovah, and don't disturb us. And it is not only the jw-society which opposes the truth, but generally the whole world is against the truth.

  And a scripture that shows that you have to be God-minded: James 2:5: Listen, my beloved brothers. God chose the ones who are poor respecting the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he promised to those who love him, did he not?

  So what I mean with God-minded, is that if you are God-minded you will strive to please God in your best way and you will love Him. This is important because Jehovah God responds to the love an individual has for him, just as the scripture above tells about those who are to be "heirs of the kingdom, which he promised to those who love him".

  So Quendi, I hope this information is what you wished to hear. May God bless you.
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  Vanderhoven7

  Quendi

  As soon as any person is convicted of their sin and hopeless situation before a holy God and recieves Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, the Holy Spirit anoints and indwells them. Generally speaking, water baptism, is a subsequent step of obedience to Christ. Two class Christianity is a man-manufactured doctrine....as is every doctrine which is simultaneously unique and original to Jehovah's Witnesses.