Would you pose as an "interested one" and "study" to help free my family? (page 4)

streets76

This seems like a good career opportunity -- for $100,000 a pop (plus expenses), I'll go anywhere you wish for six months and de-program the JW of your choice. No guarantees.

[ business card logo: Have NWT, will travel. ]

dgp

Streets76, I don't think this is a trivial matter.

Ding

Waking JWs up is tricky because their alarm systems are on high alert from all the WT apostate hype.

You have to ask questions rather than make statements because JWs won't allow you to assume the teacher role in any way.

But the minute any "interested one" asks about the GB, the UN, Russell, Rutherford, false prophecies, or anything that a normal householder wouldn't know, they suspect apostate involvement, put up the mind shields, shut their eyes, plug their ears, and run away.

Likewise, if you slip up and use WT lingo at any point.

Even if you just stick to the scriptures, too much knowledge of WT proof texts makes them suspicious.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it takes a lot of skill to engage JWs in eye-opening discussions without scaring them off.

streets76

Streets76, I don't think this is a trivial matter.

Agreed. but it seems like a time-consuming proposition with little if any chance of success (just MHO). Some people just cannot be reasoned with. They live in their little worlds and are happy with it. I'd love to "rescue" my older brother from the clutches of the WTS, but it ain't gonna happen, no matter what I say or what anyone says. If he ever leaves, it will be of his own accord, for his own reasons, and not because Indiana Jones swooped in and showed him the light. Leaving will have to be his idea. And at the end of the day, to be perfectly honest, I've come to the viewpoint of not giving a rat's ass. I'm only responsible for myself. I'm sad that he's pissed away his entire life so far for no good reason, but so be it.

streets76

"Isn't it ironic, don't cha think?" -- Alanis Morissette

Isn't it ironic that people who once spent all of their time and energy trying to get people to become Jehovah's Witnesses are now spending all of their time and energy trying to get people to stop being Jehovah's Witnesses?

If that's your bag and that's what makes you happy, go for it.

But as Gregg Allman once sang, "I ain't wasting time no more."

Essan

I think how this would proceed in practice is dependent upon what the the person nominating the JW for 'targeting' thinks is the 'weak spot' issue. They know this best because they know the JW concerned, so they can instruct the undercover 'interested one' about which issues to target.

For instance, they may know that honesty is particularly important to this JW. So they might say that the Society's dishonesty over the history and past teachings of the Org might be the place to start.

So, an undercover "interested one", having made contact with the JW, may say "OK, I am interested in learning about the Bible, but I'd like to know a little more about your Organization first so I know who I'm studying with and what I'm getting into. So tell me a little about your group. How did you get started?"

Maybe that could introduce the subject of the Society's history and the justification for addressing the topic. In discussing the Organizations history, a JW is bound to mention Russell and try to suggest what made Russell and his 'Society" special. 1914 is bound to come up. And the JW could be drawn into (unknowingly) repeating the Society's lies about what they taught about 1914 before 1914.

Then the "interested one" could say something like "Wow. So, Russell preached that Jesus would become King and be present from 1914, ousting Satan from heaven, and then the World War broke out in 1914 as evidence that this had happened, just as he said? That's quite a prediction! That really happened? Wow. I don't mean to be rude, but can you prove that? I'd love to see the books where he said that. That would be quite some evidence that Russell and the JW's were on to something and have God's backing, I agree."

Then the JW is obliged to prove it and do research, perhaps in the old books in the hall. Meanwhile the "interested one" can be doing their own "research" into the old literature: "Oh, by the way. I really enjoyed our discussion about the early JW's and Russell and what they said. I found one of his old books on Ebay and I bought it." Then this can be shared when they come together. Quickly, it should become apparent that the facts don't tally with what the JW had said. The "interested one" would not be accusatory and challenging, but simply puzzled that things don't seem to add up - much as the JW will likely be.

Ding

Essan's approach is very good.

It takes a lot of skill to pull that off.

You have to be like Lt. Columbo, always scratching your head and being puzzled by things, but never too eager.

InterestedOne

The scenario Essan described is what I tried. It is certainly natural to want to know the history, etc. Of course I messed up a lot because I was bumbling around not knowing enough about how JW's interact and not always having my facts straight, and I think I would be better equipped now. Still, what I found was that even though we would discuss my questions about the history, the JW would keep trying to get in my head and heart about how I was "progressing" with other aspects of "what I was learning." It took a lot of inner strength to keep reminding myself and trying to remind him that I had never committed to anything beyond simply learning -about- JW's. He was always subtly trying to get into my heart to find out if I was worth bothering with. After all, that is what they are trained to do. I think it might be good to offer tips for how to handle the way JW's dig into you. My response to those probing questions was usually something like, "I'm still taking it all in," or "I'm still thinking about it." At one point though, a JW said to me, "You can't go on like this forever. At some point you have to make a decision." I had to contain my annoyance that someone would start telling me what to do like that, but I just asked him to please bear with me.

Quendi

Here are my two cents which probably aren't even worth that. I applaud Essan and others who want to help their families and friends out of this cult. But I don't think this is the right way to do it. My reason for saying this is that at the bottom it is all based on deception. We are pretending to be something that we are not: an interested person who wants to study the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses. Jesus faced such people in his ministry, men who pretended to be righteous and then tried to trip him up on the question of paying taxes to Caesar. Those men were said to be "cunning" and "hypocrites".

I don't want to come across as harsh, self-righteous, or judgmental. I know the motive behind this idea is a good one. I just don't think this is an honest way of helping others. I think it would be much better to say straight up to any Witness who comes to my door that I am willing to have a Bible-based discussion with him or anyone else as long as there is no restriction on what is to be examined. Furthermore, if I pose questions about Jehovah's Witnesses' beliefs and organizational history, then I expect those questions to be addressed in a way that is respectful and honest. If the Witness agrees, then we can talk. Otherwise, we need to break off discussion then and there.

I prefer this approach because sooner or later, if the way Essan and others advocate is used, this point will be reached. What then? If the Witness learns that he has been strung along for the purpose of getting him to leave the cult, the reaction most likely will be an angry one. Who could blame him for that? If, on the other hand, he sincerely wants to do what is right, letting him know that an open, free, and frank discussion is the goal up front will save everyone precious time and hurt feelings. At least that is the way I see it. Many posters to this thread will probably disagree with me, but I wanted to put my thinking out there. In any case, I wish Essan and others every success in rescuing their loved ones from the clutches of the WTS.

Quendi

Essan

Thanks Quendi.

Obviously there will be those who don't agree on the particular approach. And while I understand and appreciate your devotion to honesty I see it in a similar way to the letter of the Law.

The letter of the the Law is honesty at all times, under all circumstances. But Jesus explained that love trumped Law, and that it was right to break laws for a moral purpose. I see this in a similar way.

It's a loving act with a right motivation which infringes upon the letter of the Law. So each must choose what is more important to them.

Would you pose as an "interested one" and "study" to help free my family?

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