The "patibulum" : a fragile theory ! (page 9)

james_woods

More crap. We still have no way of knowing.

People try to convince others by their "deep knowledge" when in fact nobody was there.

There is a far more ancient epigraph, from the 3rd century BCE, showing a completely nude figure being lifted up by a patibulum, within the Esquiline Tomb, possibly the tomb of Atilius A.f. Cn Calatinus. Note his arms are stretched out and bound at the wrists to a lifting beam and his feet are hanging free. There is no post behind him. This figure could be the Roman emissary Marcus Atilius Regulus or the defeated Carthaginian general Hannibal Gisco. You an read more about it here and here.

The various writings (Valerius Maximus 4.4.5-6; Seneca, Epistles 98.12; Cicero, In Pisonem 43; Silius Italicus, Punica 2.340-4; Florus, Epitome 1.18.25) describes differently the suffering / torture / crucifixion of Marcus Atilius Regulus as having his eyelids cut off and raised in a cage with spikes pointing inward on the inside, stuffed into a box and pierced by spikes driven into the box, or raised with a patibulum and hanged on a cross / impaled on a stake of an insane height.

Livy, Periochae 17.6, states that for the year 257 BCE, the Carthaginians crucified on a cross or impaled on a stake (I suspect the latter) their own general, Hannibal Gisco. The instrument of execution was of a sufficient height that they had to hoist him up to do it (in crucem sublatus est).

Nude figure of either Hannibal or Regulus being hoisted aloft to be crucified / impaled.

Close-up of the forearm of the figure. Note the ligatures binding the sufferer to a patibulum -- a lifting beam. This is from the Third Century BCE!!!!!

james_woods

More crap. Nobody was there.

Nobody

EdLouisiana

"More crap. We still have no way of knowing."
People try to convince others by their "deep knowledge" when in fact nobody was there.

You are absolutely correct. We can only deal in probabilities, not assumed certainties.

That's why I try to arrange the interpretation around the ancient meanings of the words and their context in the writings, and compare them to the epigraphy we have. There are only a few epigraphs we have to go by.

1. Hoisted figure tied to a patibulum, Esquiline Tomb, Rome, 3rd Century BCE.

2. IN CRVCE FIGARVS, Pompeii, 79 CE. Note: when the ablative is preceded by the preposition in, it denotes either locative or instrumental ablative. Sometimes or maybe usually, both! Like in hoc signo vinces (in this sign you will conquer) and Hoc genus in nulla potest exire nisi in oratione et ieiuno (This kind by no means can anybody evict except by prayer and fasting).

3. Vivat Crux, Pompeii, 79 CE.

4. Pozzuoli, Puteoli Flavian Ampitheatre, Pozzuoli, greater Naples, about 100 CE.

5. Alexamenos Graffito, Palatine Hill, Rome, about 200 CE.

6. Crestus graffito, Palatine Hill, Rome, First Century CE. The first two lines following the title "Crestus" appear to refer to a beating by rods followed by an impalement: virgis erat coesus decretis moribus, super palum a virum fixum (he was beaten with rods by custom from a decision; on top of a palus, oh! a man is fixed). The decipherable lines that follow are rude love verses; the double entendre of the first two lines are also rude. Image and more info here.

7. Multiple crucifixion scene, possible depicting Jerusalem during the Jewish War, Flavian Ampitheatre (Colosseum), Rome, 80 CE. More info here.

EdLouisiana

More crap. Nobody was there.
Nobody.

So nobody lived at those times to leave epigraphs and writings behind, eh?

james_woods

Nope - nobody. We have nothing.

Every one can believe what they want.

But it should not be received as something from the halls of learning.

EdLouisiana

Nope - nobody. We have nothing.
Everyone can believe what they want.
But it should not be received as something from the halls of learning.

So. Since nobody lived 2,000 years ago, how did we get here? How did Christianity come into being? How did all those ruins and epigraphs (on all manner of subjects) get left behind? How did the ancient writings get passed down?

So I suppose contemporary scholars should cease and desist studying the subject, right? Because the common definition of "crucify" means "nail to a cross." No ropes, no support underneath. Go watch The Crucifixion of Sebastian Horseley to see how utterly impossible it is.

james_woods

Nope - Nobody was there. How is that so difficult to understand:

EdLouisiana

We can all go home now, cause James Woods says nobody was there. Crucifixion never happened because there were no Romans or anyone else to do the crucifying, or anybody to be crucified. Same goes for hanging from trees, impalement, JW-impalement (nailing to a post), and so on.

james_woods

Glad to see everyone has gone home.

BTW - what I meant by "Nobody was there" meant that nobody who was credibly there left a believable record about what form the cross was made.

BTW2 - none of those cave paintings were portrayals of the cruxifiction, thus they are non-sequiter.

The "patibulum" : a fragile theory !

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