The "patibulum" : a fragile theory !

by TheFrench 112 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    What interests me, and may have been covered earlier in the thread, I apologise, I simply do not have time to read it all now, but I'm fascinated as to why the WT still sticks to the old "stake" theory instead of saying nothing.

    The original marketing ploy was to establish the difference between the WT and other religions, typical of Rutherford. But lots of people from a conventional christian background are really upset by the rejection of the cross, it is often one of the main reasons they do not go on and study, so why don't the WT keep quiet ?

    I must admit they have kept this issue in the background much more in recent times, but it is still their contention that the Cross is nothing but a pagan symbol, hard to swallow for many, which makes the rest of the WT stuff begin to look unpalatable too for them.

  • TheFrench
    TheFrench

    Then he goes on to claim that Seneca, by using stipes, patibulum, and crux to refer to the same torture-execution gallows, clearly meant that they all referred to a vertical stake! Would he, Seneca, not be referring to three discrete parts of the typical crucifixion gallows and by extension, the whole gallows itself?

    Because it uses a figure of speech, an antithesis to oppose similar instruments, a crux (which he called stipes) several crux. Consider the context, and examine it carefully, you will understand better.

    I do not believe that what TheFrench said is the truth. The truth would be from the epigraphy of the time. Graffiti like the Pozzuoli and the Vivat Crux. The Pozzuoli clearly shows the condemned criminal suspended by a stipes (post), with his arms stretched out on a patibulum (crossarm) while "riding" an acuta crux (small impaling stake, spike, tree-nail). While I'm convinced it was no fun for him, the tagger thought otherwise.

    Pozzuoli:

    Already this graffiti proves nothing in the question of Jesus. Moreover, this element is strangely unknown (or ignored) by most scholars of the crucifixion. So it is certainly not evidence of weight. Moreover, this testimony could dated second century AD. If true, this testimony appears at the time found the first descriptions of the cross as we know it today (Barnabas, Lucien, graffiti on Mount Palatine, etc..).

  • TheFrench
    TheFrench

    What interests me, and may have been covered earlier in the thread, I apologise, I simply do not have time to read it all now, but I'm fascinated as to why the WT still sticks to the old "stake" theory instead of saying nothing.

    Not that "old"!
    Proof of this is that some Samuelsson wrote a thesis on the subject recently.

    The original marketing ploy was to establish the difference between the WT and other religions, typical of Rutherford. But lots of people from a conventional christian background are really upset by the rejection of the cross, it is often one of the main reasons they do not go on and study, so why don't the WT keep quiet ?

    So you think all methods are good to convert people, even to hide the truth.

    I must admit they have kept this issue in the background much more in recent times, but it is still their contention that the Cross is nothing but a pagan symbol, hard to swallow for many, which makes the rest of the WT stuff begin to look unpalatable too for them.

    You are not very clear in what you said. Either the WT hides this teaching, or the WT says this teaching. We must choose.

  • TheFrench
    TheFrench

    Another matter questioned in your response is the connection between the carrying of the patibulum and crucifixion, whether these are two separate punishments such that the patibulum was carried by the prisoner on a separate occasion, or was not itself used in the execution. This is supported by the observation that the punishment of patibulum-bearing did not always result in capital punishment. This last point is something of a non sequitur since no one is claiming that patibulum-bearing always concluded with execution (nor is it claimed that crucifixion always involved the use of a crossbeam). In fact, my previous post made mention of the fact that the humiliation of slaves by compelling them to publically carry a beam of wood or a furca (probably originally a fork used with wagons, cf. also the separate terms used to refer to the bearer: furcifer vs. patibulatum) existed in pre-Republican times and antedated the Roman adoption of crucifixion as a form of capital punishment. As Dionysius of Halicarnassus described this practice: "A Roman citizen of no obscure station, having ordered one of his slaves to be put to death, ... directed them to drag him through the Forum and every other conspicuous part of the city as they whipped him ... having stretched out both his hands and fastened them to a piece of wood (tas kheiras apoteinantes amphoteras kai xulò prosdèsantes) which extended across his chest and shoulders as far as his wrists (para ta sterna te kai tous òmous kai mekhri tòn karpòn), they followed him tearing his naked body with whips" (Antiquitates Romanae, 7.69.1-2). Although the practice was later combined with crucifixion, it did not necessarily accompany it. But there is sufficient evidence to show that there was a close connection between patibulum-bearing and crucifixion. First of all, we see above that ancient writers mentioned the hands-outstretched-to-the-sides pose both in references to the carrying of the patibulum (as is the case in Plautus) and in references to the victim mounted or nailed to the cross (as is the case in Seneca, Lucian, Lactantius, Augustine, etc.); this is a continuity that is naturally explained by the addition of the patibulum to the cross with the victim attached to it. This is not merely hypothetical since we have already seen that Ambrose refers to Jesus carrying the "patibulum of the cross (patibulum crucis)" (De Abraham 1.8.72) as well as being nailed to the patibulum (patibulo adfixus) and suspended from it (in patibulo pendere) (Adversus Nationes 1.40, 62). That Ambrose pictured Jesus as carrying the crossbeam is also suggested by his statement that "because his neck was tender and not stiff (tener non dura cervice) but he knew the yoke of the law (iugum legis) he did not refuse the patibulum of the cross (crucis patibulum)" (De Abraham 1.5.40). The metaphor here pictures the patibulum as resting on Jesus' neck which is what would be case if it was supported laterally across his shoulders rather than over a single shoulder as depicted in late Christian art. Moreover, the expression iugum legis, while drawing on a biblical expression, evokes the use of iugum as a term for the crossbeam of the cross (see the citation above from Minucius Felix, Octavius 29.6). Ambrose uses the same metaphor in De Patriarchis, 2.9 when he makes reference to the necessity to "carry the yoke of Christ (iugum Christi portare) without a stiff neck (dura nesciens cervice)".

    Already, it is not certain that "patibulum" and "furca" refer to two different pieces of wood. If these terms refer to two very different pieces, we must prove that he is not the same punishment. Because the similarities are striking. So many scholars believe that Plautus uses "patibulum" and "furca" interchangeably in his plays.

    This confusion of terms is found in the different versions of the history of the slave punished by his master on the day of the opening games. Greek authors (Denis, Plutarch, etc..) And Latin authors (Titus, Macrobius, etc..) Tells this story. It is interesting to note that some Latin authors, employs "furca," and others "patibulum" to describe the piece of wood on which the slave is attached. Why if they are two separate punishments known? At least because this is the same punishment.

    (At this stage, we can notice that the treatment reserved to Jesus is quite different: Jesus carries a piece of wood, "stauros", but it probably is not attached thereto, Jesus will even helped carry the beam by a passing man, Jesus is not taken in the streets for people laughed at him, Jesus is not whipped while carrying the "stauros")

    Also, one thing is notable authors of antiquity often explain the punishment of the furca, when they define the word "furcifer", but not the patibulum (eg Plutarch, Isidore). It does not remember any of the patibulum punishment. Why? A satisfactory explanation is that the punishment of "patibulum" is the punishment of "furca" which remains in the memories.

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    There seems to be a lot of arm chair scholars here. But history does show that the Romans executed people, including Christians on crosses. Yes some crosses did not look like what we view as the cross today. Some were shaped in the shape of an "X" and others looked like an upper case "T". However, as far as I can see, all indications show that Jesus was exectued on a cross with a cross beam. For one thing, the bible speaks of multiple nails being used in Jesus hands, which would not be the case if he was nailed to an upright stake. John 20:25. It also speaks about the arms being stretched out, not upwards which would be the case if Jesus was nailed to a stake without a crossbeam. John 21:18-19

    It was already brought out, but Leolaia showed that the comment by French was wrong in that the early church fathers DID speak of Jesus being nailed to a cross with a patibulum. Tertullian did KNOW what he was talking about when he used the word "patibulum". In Apologeticus 3/23/6 he says that the Greek letter "T" (or TAU) had the appearance of the cross that Jesus was hung on.

    Also, PSacramento brought up a good point about the weight of the cross. There was also a study done, if memory serves correctly, that shows that Jesus wouldn't have been able to survive as long as he did with his arms straight up because he would've suffocated too quickly. Or maybe i got that backwards.

    This site gives a good account of how the JW claim of Jesus being hung on a stake MUST be false.

    http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/jehovah-witness.html

    This one is good too:

    http://carm.org/did-jesus-really-die-cross

  • TheFrench
    TheFrench

    There seems to be a lot of arm chair scholars here. But history does show that the Romans executed people, including Christians on crosses. Yes some crosses did not look like what we view as the cross today. Some were shaped in the shape of an "X" and others looked like an upper case "T". However, as far as I can see, all indications show that Jesus was exectued on a cross with a cross beam. For one thing, the bible speaks of multiple nails being used in Jesus hands, which would not be the case if he was nailed to an upright stake. John 20:25. It also speaks about the arms being stretched out, not upwards which would be the case if Jesus was nailed to a stake without a crossbeam. John 21:18-19

    John 20:25 : precision " nails" does not exclude the hypothesis of the post. Technically , a man can be nailed to a pole with two nails at the wrists , a nail in each hand , for example (see the first page of the book of Fulda ). We know nothing of the methods of fixing . Also, when WT represents Jesus nailed to a pole with a single nail which pierces the wrists , it does not pretend to make a historically accurate representation . It seems that you missed .

    John 21:18-19 : most commentators have given to see here a foreshadowing of Peter crucified on a cross . This simply refers to the passivity of a man who is led to execution .

    It was already brought out, but Leolaia showed that the comment by French was wrong in that the early church fathers DID speak of Jesus being nailed to a cross with a patibulum. Tertullian did KNOW what he was talking about when he used the word "patibulum". In Apologeticus 3/23/6 he says that the Greek letter "T" (or TAU) had the appearance of the cross that Jesus was hung on.

    Tertullian has already used " patibulum" in his works but each time it is impossible to tell in what sense ( cross or c rossbeam ). However , when Tertullian defines the different parts of the cross , he never uses " patibulum", which would be the name used to name the crossbeam , but each time Tertullian uses the word "antenna ". This is somewhat strange , no?

    Also, PSacramento brought up a good point about the weight of the cross. There was also a study done, if memory serves correctly, that shows that Jesus wouldn't have been able to survive as long as he did with his arms straight up because he would've suffocated too quickly. Or maybe i got that backwards.

    I have already answered this argument does not hold. Besides, if I took the time, I could show you that this experience is rather favorable to death on a pole, rather than death on a cross. But for now this is not the main problem.

  • SweetBabyCheezits
    SweetBabyCheezits

    Gosh, you'd think if this was such an important detail, an omnipotent god would've ensured it was accurately recorded so there wouldn't be room for misunderstanding.

  • TheFrench
    TheFrench

    Is the word "stauros" in the Gospels, it is not a source of misunderstanding?

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    A thousand scholars could write a thousand pages each on this - and still nobody would know.

    Nobody was there. We have no convincing eyewitness acount of the event.

    It is ironic that the JWs pretend to be so scrupulous on this issue, and yet accept a wrong pronunciation and spelling of the name of their God, "Jehovah". The JWs admit that the English Jehovah is not correct. They explain that the Jehovah word is acceptable because it is "customary".

    Isn't the cross also "customary"? Yes - BUT:

    The truth of this goes back to Alexander Hislop and his fractured notions that the conventional cross was somehow "trinitarian" - and this was the root of the still existant Witness hatred for it.

  • EdLouisiana
    EdLouisiana

    Because it [sic!] uses a figure of speech, an antithesis to oppose similar instruments, a crux (which he called stipes) several crux [sic: the plural is cruces]. Consider the context, and examine it carefully, you will understand it better.

    if he is using a figure of speech, why would you think he is using crux to mean stipes, that is, the main post, exclusively? And why would you take it to mean that patibulum also meant stipes? Yes, he is using figures of speech to show that in the context (referring to those who do not fight their desires, but willingly give themselves fully to them, thereby "crucifying" themselves -- remember, Seneca was a Stoic) figurative nails (clavi), posts (stipitites), transverse beams (patibula), impaling stakes or the full frames (cruces) are the same as these people's desires (cupiditates)*. They do not necessarily mean that out in the real they are all one in the same! In fact, Seneca differentiates them as differing lethal instruments of suspension and torture out in the real world (DeConsolatione 20.3, Epistulae Morales 14.5, 101.10-14), as leolaia as demonstratively shown.

    * I am using the nominative plural in each case.

    Already this graffiti (sic! -- these graffiti [Pozzuoli and Vivat Crux]) proves nothing in the question of Jesus. Moreover, this element is strangely unknown (or ignored) by most scholars of the crucifixion. So it is certainly not evidence of weight. Moreover, this testimony could dated second century AD. If true, this testimony appears at the time found the first descriptions of the cross as we know it today (Barnabas, Lucien (sic), graffiti on Mount palatine, etc..)

    The Pozzuoli is from about 100 CE; the Vivat Crux (found in Pompeii) 79 CE at the latest. Also found in Pompeii was an obscene graffito, IN CRVCE FIGARUS, meaning, "may you be fixed on/by the crux."

    I can tell you right away scholars on this subject they ignore it almost completely. I know how contemporary scholars ignore, or worse, tend to negate the simple, obvious meaning of anaskolopizw through rationalizations. And there are some ancient, byzantine, and medieval scholars, even Julius Lipsius, who translated the greek anaskolopizw into the Latin in crucem agere, and/or vice-versa. Even Victorian scholars were not as bad as contemporary scholars.** Yet if anyone knows anything about the human body, one must use a support with a restrainer to keep the condemned person from hanging out from the crux, with the chance the nails might rip through the hands, wrists or even forearms, or let go of the wood. If such a device is not to be used, one had best use ropes.

    Epistle of Barnabas: 80-120 CE.

    Lucian of Samosata: 125-180 CE.

    Alexamenos Graffito: about 200 CE.

    Not exactly contemporary, except perhaps Barnabas. The others are later.

    **Harry Thurston Peck, Dictionary of Classical Antiquities (1898), "Crux."

    It was impossible that the whole weight of the body should rest upon the nails; hence there was a piece of wood projecting from the stipes on which the sufferer sat, or rather rode (Tertull. adv. Nat. i.12; cf. adv. Haer. i. 12 [sic - Iren. adv. Haer. ii.24]). The expression acuta si sedeam cruce, in the famous lines of Maceneas ap. Pliny [sic - Seneca] Ep. 101, probably refers to this support, and not, as lipsius thought, to impalement. when it was wanting, the body was probably sustained by ropes.

    **William Smith, LLD, William Wayte, G. E. Marindin, Ed. A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities (1890), "Crux."

    It was impossible that the whole weight of the body should rest upon the nails; hence there was a piece of wood projecting from the stipes on which the sufferer sat, or rather, rode (keras ep' w epoxountai oi stauroumenoi, Just. Mart. Dial. c. Tryph. 91; sedilis excessus, Tertull. Adv. Nat. 1.12; cf. Iren. adv. Haer. 1:12 [sic - adv. Haer. 2.24]. The expression acuta si sedeam cruce, in the famous lines of Maceneas ap. Sen. Ep. 101, probably refers to this support, and not, as Lipsius thought, to impalement (see Archd. Farrar in Dict. of the Bible, s.v. Cross). whwn it was wanting, the body was probably sustained by ropes: the combination of ropes with nails is mentioned by Pliny (fragmentum clavi a cruce and spartum e cruce as charms, H.N. 28.46) and Hilary ("colligantum funium vincula et adactorum clavorum vulnera," de Trin. 10).

    Pliny Elder 23-79 CE. fragmentum clavi a cruce means fragment of a nail from a crux.

    Hilary 300-368 CE

    And even when the support was provided, in order to lift the condemned up with the patibulum, they had to use ropes anyway. What does in crucem tollere mean to you? It means "to lift up into the cross / onto the stake"

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