May you all have peace! I would like to respond to a couple/fews things, though, if I may, and then will endeavor to move on as I have shared pretty much all that I have received on the matter.
First, I have to say to dear JIFB (peace to you!), no worries, dear one, none at all - I understand... and I didn't read your posts, either. I rarely find anything of great interest or benefit in them to be honest. Although I frequently perceive a lot of underlying anger (perhaps at your parents/the WTBTS GB, etc.) masquerading as sarcasm. But there's nothing I can do... or say... to help you through that, truly, so... Hopefully, though, you will find it your heart not to be any more offended that I didn't/don't read your posts... that I was/am that you don't/didn't read mine (which truly was... and is... not at all).
Thank you, dear Trevor (peace to you, as well!), for trying to clear up my "hearing" for dear QO (and peace to you!). I can hear spirits; the voice I hear, however, is, for the most part one, my Lord's. On (very) rare occasions, I have heard the Father's voice, usually introducing or validating that my Lord IS His Son and things like that. I have heard that Voice on six occasions only.
Your sincere questions, however, deserve an accurate and truthful response and so I have been permitted to do so.
Why has the Christian god or Jesus allowed so many people to put faith in the teachings of the Holy Bible and often die terrible deaths for their faith?
Neither the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, or the Holy One of Israel, my Lord, JAHESHUA, His Chosen One... told anyone to put their faith in the teachings of the Bible. To the contrary, they BOTH told us whose teachings to put our faith in: the Son. They SAID it... and the Bible has RECORD of that. That people choose to follow the teachings of PAUL on this matter is... on them. Paul, however, was never appointed as mediator between God and man. So, the error lies with man... especially those who claim to be "leaders" and "teachers" as to what God and Christ want... and the Bible "says"... AND those who claim to have READ the Bible... but consistently and repeatedly overlook... who IT says we are to listen to... as well as HOW we are to listen. Both do it because... they are blind. They SAY they see... but they don't see a thing, really.
Why were these sincere people not given the benefit of direct conversation with Jesus, that some on this board claim to have, and informed that the Bible is not Holy?
They HAVE been. However, they don't want to BELIEVE that. The Bible ISN'T holy - it's a BOOK... made of paper and ink (and, in some instances, a bit of gold). The TREE that the paper came from was chopped down... and so DEAD. The part of the tree that DIDN'T go toward making the paper... was ground to dust, burned to keep someone warm, used to build something else, etc. The paper that wasn't used was either thrown out or pummeled to be recycled into paper to make something else, including something that was NOT a Bible. The ink that wasn't used... was either used for some other writing... or poured down the drain. If the BIBLE is "holy", however... why wasn't what it was MADE of "holy"? Can one part of something be "holy"... and not the ENTIRE thing???
Those who have no clue what holy IS... would say, yes. However, those KNOW what holy is... would say, no way; either the WHOLE thing is holy, including what it is made from... or NONE of it is holy.
That folks choose to CALL something "holy"... doesn't MAKE it holy, dear one.
But, they take it farther than that. Let me ask YOU: how is it that people can call the Bible God's "Word"... when the Bible ITSELF states what the Word IS?? Right there, in plain writing, before God and everybody... for ANYONE to read. Right THERE. Yet, they place WAY more reverence on the book... made of materials from a TREE and BUGS... than they do on the One that book SAYS... is God's Word.
Why? Because they WANT to believe that the Bible is God's Word. They NEED to believe it. Why? Because, as one JW "sister" virtually yelled at me, when I pointed out the "golden calf" that the WTBTS is for them... "People don't WORSHIP... what they can't SEE!"
And with that...
The Bible is a thing of reverence for some, dear one. Indeed, for some, a thing that is worshipped. Which makes it... AN IDOL. But... they don't SEE that... because, they are SO caught up and enthralled at looking at IT... indeed, looking IN it... that they can't see Christ. And why do they look in it? Because they are trying to see the "Law"... because they think that if they can SEE the Law... they can FULFILL the Law... and by means of this, receive life.
They don't GET... that not only can they not get life this way, but that it actually stands IN THE WAY. There are two (2) verses IN the Bible that SHOULD have helped those who claim to have read the Bible see this. But one of them explains why they HAVEN'T seen it... perhaps even CAN'T. The first was from Paul, to the Corinthian congregation. To them, he wrote:
"The old way, with laws etched in stone, led to death, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses' face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. Shouldn't we expect far greater glory under the new way, now that the Holy Spirit is giving life? If the old way, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God! In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever!
Since this new way gives us such confidence, we can be very bold. We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though it was destined to fade away. But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by turning to Christ. Yes, even today when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand.
But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is that Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord-who is the Spirit-makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image."
2 Corinthians 3:17
And my Lord:
"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Yetyou refuse to come to me to receive this life."
John 5:39, 40
This is what THE BIBLE says!! How can they say they love Christ... and listen to him... and follow God's "Word"... the Bible... when they don't listen to THIS??
The Bible is their god... and so, they are led into confusion BY their god, dear Trevor.
I feel, greatly, for those who put their faith in the Bible, yet, don't even know what it SAYS. I mean, if one is going to defend it as infallible, one should at least know what it says... about believing what's in it. The old covenant... is in it.
Finally, greetings to you, dear JonH... and peace to you! The following are excerpts from The Apology:
"Well, then, I will make my defence, and I will endeavor in the short time which is allowed to do away with this evil opinion of me which you have held for such a long time; and I hope I may succeed, if this be well for you and me, and that my words may find favor with you. But I know that to accomplish this is not easy - I quite see the nature of the task. Let the event be as God wills: in obedience to the law I make my defence.
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"And here, O men of Athens, I must beg you not to interrupt me, even if I seem to say something extravagant. For the word which I will speak is not mine. I will refer you to a witness who is worthy of credit, and will tell you about my wisdom - whether I have any, and of what sort - and that witness shall be the god of Delphi.
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... I am going to explain to you why I have such an evil name. When I heard the answer, I said to myself, What can the god mean? and what is the interpretation of this riddle? for I know that I have no wisdom, small or great. What can he mean when he says that I am the wisest of men? And yet he is a god and cannot lie; that would be against his nature. After a long consideration, I at last thought of a method of trying the question. I reflected that if I could only find a man wiser than myself, then I might go to the god with a refutation in my hand. I should say to him, "Here is a man who is wiser than I am; but you said that I was the wisest."
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"After this I went to one man after another, being not unconscious of the enmity which I provoked, and I lamented and feared this: but necessity was laid upon me - the word of God, I thought, ought to be considered first.
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"This investigation has led to my having many enemies of the worst and most dangerous kind, and has given occasion also to many calumnies, and I am called wise, for my hearers always imagine that I myself possess the wisdom which I find wanting in others: but the truth is, O men of Athens, that God only is wise; and in this oracle he means to say that the wisdom of men is little or nothing; he is not speaking of Socrates, he is only using my name as an illustration, as if he said, He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing. And so I go my way, obedient to the god, and make inquisition into the wisdom of anyone, whether citizen or stranger, who appears to be wise; and if he is not wise, then in vindication of the oracle I show him that he is not wise; and this occupation quite absorbs me, and I have no time to give either to any public matter of interest or to any concern of my own, but I am in utter poverty by reason of my devotion to the god.
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"What do they say? Something of this sort: - That Socrates is a doer of evil, and corrupter of the youth, and he does not believe in the gods of the state, and has other new divinities of his own.
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"I have shown, Athenians, as I was saying, that Meletus has no care at all, great or small, about the matter. But still I should like to know, Meletus, in what I am affirmed to corrupt the young. I suppose you mean, as I infer from your indictment, that I teach them not to acknowledge the gods which the state acknowledges, but some other new divinities or spiritual agencies in their stead. These are the lessons which corrupt the youth, as you say.
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Then, by the gods, Meletus, of whom we are speaking, tell me and the court, in somewhat plainer terms, what you mean! for I do not as yet understand whether you affirm that I teach others to acknowledge some gods, and therefore do believe in gods and am not an entire atheist - this you do not lay to my charge; but only that they are not the same gods which the city recognizes - the charge is that they are different gods. Or, do you mean to say that I am an atheist simply, and a teacher of atheism?
[Note, Meletu's response is: "I mean the latter - that you are a complete atheist"]
Do you mean that I do not believe in the godhead of the sun or moon, which is the common creed of all men?
[Meletus: I assure you, judges, that he does not believe in them; for he says that the sun is stone, and the moon earth.]
Friend Meletus, you think that you are accusing Anaxagoras; and you have but a bad opinion of the judges, if you fancy them ignorant to such a degree as not to know that those doctrines are found in the books of Anaxagoras the Clazomenian, who is full of them. And these are the doctrines which the youth are said to learn of Socrates, when there are not unfrequently exhibitions of them at the theatre (price of admission one drachma at the most); and they might cheaply purchase them, and laugh at Socrates if he pretends to father such eccentricities. And so, Meletus, you really think that I do not believe in any god?
Meletus: I swear by Zeus that you believe absolutely in none at all.
You are a liar, Meletus, not believed even by yourself. For I cannot help thinking, O men of Athens, that Meletus is reckless and impudent, and that he has written this indictment in a spirit of mere wantonness and youthful bravado. Has he not compounded a riddle, thinking to try me? He said to himself: - I shall see whether this wise Socrates will discover my ingenious contradiction, or whether I shall be able to deceive him and the rest of them. For he certainly does appear to me to contradict himself in the indictment as much as if he said that Socrates is guilty of not believing in the gods, and yet of believing in them - but this surely is a piece of fun. I should like you, O men of Athens, to join me in examining what I conceive to be his inconsistency; and do you, Meletus, answer. And I must remind you that you are not to interrupt me if I speak in my accustomed manner.
And so, Socrates goes on to question Meletus. Some of the statements in his closing argument, however, is of most interest:
Strange, indeed, would be my conduct, O men of Athens, if I who, when I was ordered by the generals whom you chose to command me at Potidaea and Amphipolis and Delium, remained where they placed me, like any other man, facing death; if, I say, now, when, as I conceive and imagine, God orders me to fulfil the philosopher's mission of searching into myself and other men, I were to desert my post through fear of death, or any other fear; that would indeed be strange, and I might justly be arraigned in court for denying the existence of the gods, if I disobeyed the oracle because I was afraid of death: then I should be fancying that I was wise when I was not wise. For this fear of death is indeed the pretence of wisdom, and not real wisdom, being the appearance of knowing the unknown; since no one knows whether death, which they in their fear apprehend to be the greatest evil, may not be the greatest good. Is there not here conceit of knowledge, which is a disgraceful sort of ignorance? And this is the point in which, as I think, I am superior to men in general, and in which I might perhaps fancy myself wiser than other men, - that whereas I know but little of the world below, I do not suppose that I know: but I do know that injustice and disobedience to a better, whether God or man, is evil and dishonorable, and I will never fear or avoid a possible good rather than a certain evil. And therefore if you let me go now, and reject the counsels of Anytus, who said that if I were not put to death I ought not to have been prosecuted, and that if I escape now, your sons will all be utterly ruined by listening to my words - if you say to me, Socrates, this time we will not mind Anytus, and will let you off, but upon one condition, that are to inquire and speculate in this way any more, and that if you are caught doing this again you shall die; - if this was the condition on which you let me go, I should reply: Men of Athens, I honor and love you; but I shall obey God rather than you, and while I have life and strength I shall never cease from the practice and teaching of philosophy, exhorting anyone whom I meet after my manner, and convincing him, saying: O my friend, why do you who are a citizen of the great and mighty and wise city of Athens, care so much about laying up the greatest amount of money and honor and reputation, and so little about wisdom and truth and the greatest improvement of the soul, which you never regard or heed at all? Are you not ashamed of this? And if the person with whom I am arguing says: Yes, but I do care; I do not depart or let him go at once; I interrogate and examine and cross-examine him, and if I think that he has no virtue, but only says that he has, I reproach him with undervaluing the greater, and overvaluing the less. And this I should say to everyone whom I meet, young and old, citizen and alien, but especially to the citizens, inasmuch as they are my brethren. For this is the command of God, as I would have you know; and I believe that to this day no greater good has ever happened in the state than my service to the God. For I do nothing but go about persuading you all, old and young alike, not to take thought for your persons and your properties, but first and chiefly to care about the greatest improvement of the soul. I tell you that virtue is not given by money, but that from virtue come money and every other good of man, public as well as private. This is my teaching, and if this is the doctrine which corrupts the youth, my influence is ruinous indeed. But if anyone says that this is not my teaching, he is speaking an untruth. Wherefore, O men of Athens, I say to you, do as Anytus bids or not as Anytus bids, and either acquit me or not; but whatever you do, know that I shall never alter my ways, not even if I have to die many times.
Men of Athens, do not interrupt, but hear me; there was an agreement between us that you should hear me out. And I think that what I am going to say will do you good: for I have something more to say, at which you may be inclined to cry out; but I beg that you will not do this. I would have you know that, if you kill such a one as I am, you will injure yourselves more than you will injure me. Meletus and Anytus will not injure me: they cannot; for it is not in the nature of things that a bad man should injure a better than himself. I do not deny that he may, perhaps, kill him, or drive him into exile, or deprive him of civil rights; and he may imagine, and others may imagine, that he is doing him a great injury: but in that I do not agree with him; for the evil of doing as Anytus is doing - of unjustly taking away another man's life - is greater far. And now, Athenians, I am not going to argue for my own sake, as you may think, but for yours, that you may not sin against the God, or lightly reject his boon by condemning me. For if you kill me you will not easily find another like me, who, if I may use such a ludicrous figure of speech, am a sort of gadfly, given to the state by the God; and the state is like a great and noble steed who is tardy in his motions owing to his very size, and requires to be stirred into life. I am that gadfly which God has given the state and all day long and in all places am always fastening upon you, arousing and persuading and reproaching you. And as you will not easily find another like me, I would advise you to spare me. I dare say that you may feel irritated at being suddenly awakened when you are caught napping; and you may think that if you were to strike me dead, as Anytus advises, which you easily might, then you would sleep on for the remainder of your lives, unless God in his care of you gives you another gadfly. And that I am given to you by God is proved by this: - that if I had been like other men, I should not have neglected all my own concerns, or patiently seen the neglect of them during all these years, and have been doing yours, coming to you individually, like a father or elder brother, exhorting you to regard virtue; this I say, would not be like human nature. And had I gained anything, or if my exhortations had been paid, there would have been some sense in that: but now, as you will perceive, not even the impudence of my accusers dares to say that I have ever exacted or sought pay of anyone; they have no witness of that. And I have a witness of the truth of what I say; my poverty is a sufficient witness.
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"And this is a duty which the God has imposed upon me, as I am assured by oracles, visions, and in every sort of way in which the will of divine power was ever signified to anyone.
"For if, O men of Athens, by force of persuasion and entreaty, I could overpower your oaths, then I should be teaching you to believe that there are no gods, and convict myself, in my own defence, of not believing in them. But that is not the case; for I do believe that there are gods, and in a far higher sense than that in which any of my accusers believe in them. And to you and to God I commit my cause, to be determined by you as is best for you and me.
"Wherefore, O judges, be of good cheer about death, and know this of a truth - that no evil can happen to a good man, either in life or after death. He and his are not neglected by the gods; nor has my own approaching end happened by mere chance.
"The hour of departure has arrived, and we go our ways - I to die, and you to live. Which is better God only knows."
The "gods" that Socrates spoke of, dear one... is the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, and His Son, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, my Lord, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). The "demi-gods" are the other spirit beings, cherubs/angels. The "oracle" was a prophetess in Delphi. Socrates was my brother in Christ... and was sent by my Lord, the Word of God, to try and turn the Greek Senate away from their bad works. What works? Putting others of my brothers to death... for speaking the truth.
How anyone can say that Socrates didn't believe in God is... baffling. That man has made him into an icon of things he never intended (as they did Paul)... isn't surprising, though. It is man's way.
But... if I am crazy, then so was Socrates. I doubt you'll find who will agree with that. If so, then much of what the western world bases "wisdom" on today... originated with a crazy man. So what, then, does that say about us... as a society/culture? Even so, I consider myself in good company. Among the best, actually.
I truly hope this helped and, again, bid you all peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA
