Has anyone tried tactics from"Captives of a Concept"?

by Coffee House Girl 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Coffee House Girl

  Just read Don Cameron's book...which was very en-light-ening (sorry for the "new light" pun)....and I agree with many of Cameron's points about how to reason with a JW but I am curious....

  Have any of you out there in JWN land ever tried to have a witness come to your door, pretend to have a bible study & get the JW in a "teacher" setting where they have to research for you the history of JW's in the time of 1919????

  Were you successful? Did it not work out?

  I am also curious if these tactics work on your JW family members (I can see where you can play dumb with a dub when they don't know you, but family is different)

  Thanks for any feedback!!

  CHG
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  Anime Nerd

  I've used the tactics from Captives of a Concept on my extremely arrogant brother Saul. I told him that it doesn't matter what the Witnesses teach today; only what they taught in 1919. I told him about all the wrong teachings the Witnesses had back then. And that Jesus would never have selected an organization preaching lies as the Faithful and Discreet Slave. His response: They are imperfect men. And the light gets brighter.

  I mentioned the flip flop on who the "Superior Authorities" were. I told him the light didn't get brighter; it flickered on and off. His response: They are imperfect men. And what else is there? I told him that God wouldn't allow his chosen organization to publish lies in his name. That the only imperfections the GB would have, would be in their personal lives; not the information that they claim to get from divine inpiration.

  Nothing fazed him. Saul thinks he's smarter than other witnesses and likes to go on religious discussion boards and "debunk" their beliefs. I told him he's not supposed to be doing that. He feels that it's okay for him to do it because he so smart. He's even read "Combating Cult Mind Control" and doesn't think his religion is a cult. He thinks that any similarities with a cult, are "neccessary to keep God's people clean."

  I also discussed the book "Crisis of Conscience" with Saul. He was already aware of it. He didn't dispute any of the facts in the book. But once again, said, "What else is there. They are imperfect men. And New Light!" He prides himself on his logic, but he is a moron.

  I had this conversation with him back in March of 2010. Even though I'm not baptized, my family has shunned me since that conversation and labeled me an Apostate.

  So, no. For me, and my family, Captives of a Concept didn't work. And neither did Combating Cult Mind Control, nor Crisis of Conscience. I could have a video of the Governing Body killing and eating babies, and they would be able to explain it away as "imperfect men."
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  Coffee House Girl

  that is what I fear AN.....that unless you talk to a JW that is already "fading", you will get the same results as the author did when the elders in his cong told him that if the society is not gods organization that there is no god....

  thanks for your feedback!

  CHG
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  cantleave

  Is Saul our very own DJeggnog per chance?
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  Nickolas

  I finished Cameron's book recently, too, CHG, but have no intention of using what I learned in a direct attack because, as Cameron himself points out, it won't work. The tactic of feigning interest, posing as a student for an unsuspecting JW teacher, won't work for me because I have not hidden the fact that I am atheist and my JW family members know it, and as a consequence they never, never discuss religious or spiritual matters with me. When an outside event (like Harold Camping's prophesy, for example) presents a segway for me to open the subject, it is never taken up, always greeted by silence. I will, however, take any opportunity that presents itself by any JW who is sufficiently confident in the strength of his faith in the Watchtower to take me on, recognising that cognitive dissonance will most likely prevail.

  I've just started reading Crisis of Conscience. It's a bit of a tome, as you know, and also a bit of a slog so far so I expect it will be awhile before I get through it.
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  wobble

  Dear Anime Nerd, Welcome to the board !

  I am sorry you could not make your brother think, or really honestly look at his position, I had the same problem with my nephew.

  I think you made the mistake of letting him side track you, it seems that way, as you relay the conversation. Our very own "Black Sheep" points this out many times.

  You : "There is no way Jesus would have chosen them in 1919"

  Saul: "They are imperfect men, and the light keeps getting brighter"

  The above answer from Saul is irrelevant to the question, you must return to the question,straight away, not discuss the imperfections or bright light just repeat:

  "There is no way Jesus would have chosen them in 1919"

  I only outline this for the benefit of others, and just in case you get the chance to repeat the exercise. Just stick to the 1919 "choosing", they can offer no proof.

  As I said above, I put this very question to my Elder Nephew, but in a letter to which he has not responded.

  I really do not know what level of Cognitive Dissonance and downright burying ones head in the sand one has to use to not see the problem with 1919, and the ramifications, if the GB cannot prove their provenance by this choosing, they have no authority, and no reason to sit on high in Brooklyn ruling over 7 million mind-controlled JW's.

  But having tried to get this over, with no success to several long term JW's I realise that to actually get them to reason, and to honestly examine their beliefs is well nigh impossible.

  Once something tips them over the edge, then you get a chance, but all the while they do not want to see, they will remain blind.
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  lifelong humanist

  Coffee House Girl

  I've come to the conclusion that unless the person you want to help break free from JWs has already come to realize that the religion is just a scam through their own efforts, no tactic, no matter how 'clever' or 'well-intentioned' will work, far less prevail. Sad, but true, in my opinion.

  I believe now that it is better just to forget it, and move on to more interesting topics. There are countless fascinating things to consider discussing apart from the weird beliefs of JWs. As far as I'm concerned, religion, no matter how friendly or divisive, just isn't one of them. Politics, likewise.

  I arrive at this conclusion having tried and dismally failed to help my wife exit JWs after I DAd myself in 2003. Now, I don't bother thinking up new strategies or re-inventing old ideas - nothing works if the person 'wants' to remain a JW, or is genuinely scared of 'expressing any doubts'.

  lifelong humanist
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  Anime Nerd

  Cantleave: "Is Saul our very own DJeggnog per chance?

  It's funny you ask that. I've wondered the same thing. Although my brother would never be a DJ. He only likes Classical music. He has said numerous times that anyone who prefers rock/rap/country/etc. over classical music, is too stupid to appreciate classical music. Then again, he could be using the name DJ, to throw people off who know him.

  He only ever admitted to going onto a Creationist vs. Atheist forum. He never admitted to debating on apostate webstites. Then again, who knows? It would be funny if DJeggnog is my brother. His personality fits him to a tee: arrogant, condicending, long winded, dismissive of other peoples' ideas and beliefs.

  Thanks for the welcome Wobble. I only typed a very abridged version of the epic battle I had with my brother. If you'd like to see the full conversation, head on over to JehovahsWitnessRecovery.com and read these 2 threads of mine:

  http://www.jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6482

  http://www.jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6501
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  Terry

  There is a Witness personality at work.

  People who are a little...ummm..."different"..are attracted to the "We know stuff the others don't know" gimmick Jehovah's Witnesses offer

  that puts them in the catbird seat.

  Feeling superior for the very first time in their lives isn't an easy thing to make them let go of and return to loser status.

  JW's without their "inside information" are just back to being regular, ho-hum, everyday losers.

  Who would want that?
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  Coffee House Girl

  Thanks for everyone's feedback...I was slightly inclined to try Cameron's tactics if given the opportunity but....I think overall this book is best for exiting and exJW's. The whole 1919 issue was an "ah-ha" moment for me and I was glad to read it

  Thanks for recommending it all those on JWN!

  CHG