The Zeitgeist Movement

by losthobbit 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • Palimpsest

    For some odd reason, I'm a bit leery when it comes to joining new movements... ;)

  • losthobbit

    Tammy, the goal is to have cities, like those defined on, in which the system, also defined on that site, can work.

    Satanus, I love science, technology and automation. The more advanced we become, the less work there is to do. See google's work on automatic vehicle driving, as an example. If that becomes popular, we'll no longer need bus drivers or taxi drivers. That's fantastic, but not if you're a bus driver, or taxi driver. (This is I wrote 'I don't see how the current system can continue with the high, exponential rate of technological change - in this system peole need to have jobs in order to live.')

    Technology progresses exponentially. In the last hundred years we've had more technological advances than in the last thousand. Every year we have more technological progress than the previous year. I don't think that many people really understand the word exponential, unless they see a graph, .... so take a look at the graphs on this page:

    What happens when your job is automated?

    Have you ever wondered how many jobs exist to benefit humanity, verse those which exist simply to move money around the system?

    For example: Doctors, Vets, Farmers exist for a good reason. Cashiers, bankers, accountants, estate agents, insurance salesmen, and pretty much anyone that works in business (not directly creating a unique product, or solving a real problem) exist simply to move money around the system. Even the majority of work done by lawyers and police exists simply because of money.

    Consider if there were no governments, and only one business existed, which employed everyone, and produced one make of every required product. Firstly, we'd all have jobs, and secondly, we'd only have to work for an hour or two a day.

    Using money to keep score only works if you have money to start off with. Even if you do, you have to constantly watch your money, and make sure you invest it in the right place, and that it's not stolen.

    You wrote "The education that you talk about sounds like a referal to the movement's gospel, which still is not clear, to me." ... the FAQ's on the Venus Project's site should answer your question. And yes, by "education", I refer to educating people about the problems in the current system, and proposals to create a working system.

    You wrote "If your system needs for a lot of people to dissappear..." What? Where do you get that idea from?

    You wrote "For measures to be implemented, steps have to be set out CLEARLY, as in number one step, number two step, etc. If the movement's leader has not done that, if steps are not clear in your mind, that is a bad sign."

    The Zeitgeist Movement up till recently existed as the activist arm for the Venus Project. The Venus Project has a series of steps:


    The goal of the Zeitgeist Movement was simply to spread awareness of the Venus Project, so that they could achieve their goals.

    The leader of the Venus Project is 95 year old Jacque Fresco. He's been working on this project for most of his life... that's a long time. Unfortunately he seems to have a bit of a problem working well with people these days, and Peter (founder of ZM) has disagreed with him regarding phase 2. For this reason, the ZM is now independent of the Venus Project, but still advocating their ideas. This change happened very recently, and I'm looking forward to Peter's plan to set up a NPO for research. As time goes on I believe we'll have a better idea as to how the transition is going to happen.

    Until then, I don't have a better way of trying to help resolve the major problems in the world. If you do, please tell me.

  • tec

    Okay. Phase one and two are mostly just advertising/awareness of what COULD be, as far as I can see. Necessary steps, yes, but not what I was addressing. I know what the goal is of the Venus Project. I want to know how to attain that goal. The direct steps (understanding of course that things change as we learn more) But there has to be a clear plan in place for people to take them seriously, or especially to want to donate to their cause. So phase three seems to be what I'm asking about, and I'm going to go through what my concerns are step by step:


    To test its designs and proposals The Venus Project is working towards putting its ideals into practice by the construction of an experimental research city. Blueprints for most of the initial technologies and buildings have begun. Fund-raising efforts are currently under way to help support the construction of this first experimental city. This new experimental research city would be devoted to working towards the aims and goals of The Venus Project, which are:

    1. Realizing the declaration of the world's resources as being the common heritage of all people.

    How? What steps would there be in bringing about this realization? What do you do with the people who object?

    2. Transcending the artificial boundaries that currently and arbitrarily separate people.

    Again, how? If the answer is education, show how that is implemented.

    3. Replacing money-based nationalistic economies with a resource-based world economy.

    Again, how? What are the steps that will be taken to realize this, and how will they be enforced? I'm thinking that 'How?' is going to be my question for all of these points.

    4. Assisting in stabilizing the world’s population through education and voluntary birth control.

    Actually, this one at least has an answer to the how ;) Eat my own words on this point! Although again, this is almost impossible to regulate and enforce... China has tried it, but with very limited to no success. People still have the ability to reject their education. So what would be different than what is happening now?

    5. Reclaiming and restoring the natural environment to the best of our ability.

    How? How do you implement this - how do you get the cooperation of all governments, tycoons, etc? And then enforce it?

    6. Redesigning cities, transportation systems, agricultural industries, and industrial plants so that they are energy efficient, clean, and able to conveniently serve the needs of all people.

    Big Big How? Define the steps clearly.

    7. Gradually outgrowing corporate entities and governments, (local, national, or supra-national) as means of social management.


    8. Sharing and applying new technologies for the benefit of all nations.


    9. Developing and using clean renewable energy sources.

    Good. Great. What are the steps that will be taken to get people off the old way and onto the new way?

    10. Manufacturing the highest quality products for the benefit of the world’s people.


    11. Requiring environmental impact studies prior to construction of any mega projects.

    Of course. I think we do that now, don't we? It all depends on the level of technology at the time, how well we can predict the sturdiness of anything we build. As the technology grows, as you say, so will the safety and stability of our projects.

    12. Encouraging the widest range of creativity and incentive toward constructive endeavour.

    This is a good point. An awesome one, really, imo. We don't encourage that nearly enough today. This is also an easy step to initiate.

    13. Outgrowing nationalism, bigotry, and prejudice through education.

    Through education is good, yes. Steps listed would be nice... healing would have to happen as well, for the offended parties and the offenders both.

    14. Eliminating elitism, technical or otherwise.

    Good. But again, what are the steps. Though by this point, if we've managed to implement the first bit, then this one will come more naturally.

    15. Arriving at methodologies by careful research rather than random opinions.

    I think that happens now. Pride/ambition gets in the way sometimes. So really it is pride/ambition that needs to be eliminated. I'm not sure how to do that though.

    16. Enhancing communication in schools so that our language is relevant to the physical conditions of the world.

    Okay, this one is a big how. I heard the Venus project founder speaking about this once. So that we wouldn't say things that could be taken the wrong way or misunderstood. Those 'words' would be eliminated from the human language. So what are those words, and how do we implement this new language according to the physical conditions of the world?

    17. Providing not only the necessities of life, but also offering challenges that stimulate the mind while emphasizing individuality rather than uniformity.

    Good. Do they have a list of those challenges, and also some research on how they work?

    18. Finally, preparing people intellectually and emotionally for the changes and challenges that lie ahead.

    How, and what are these changes and challenges?

    LostHobbit, I'm not knocking these ideals. But like I said above, if they want people to take them seriously, to get involved, to donate to their cause... then they have to have to be able to answer HOW to all of those points above, and some idea/backing that those steps will WORK. Maybe they do and its just not listed on their site?


  • losthobbit

    Hi Tammy

    Thanks for clarifying. I can't answer on behalf of the Venus Project and tell you exactly how they intend to achieve their goals. You could try asking specific questions on the Zeitgeist Movement's forum if you like. I can only tell you my opinions, and why I support the Zeitgeist Movement.

    I'm a software developer doing mostly prototype development. In a way all programmers are inventors. We're always building things that have never been made before.

    When asked to build an application I don't know beforehand the exact details of how I'm going to do it, but I have a learned set of design principles that I use. I always start with a goal. My manager will tell me to build him something... like a program that allows one system to communicate with another. I then break down the problem into smaller problems, and each smaller problem into even smaller problems until all the problems are simplified into things I know how to do... but this could be hundreds of thousands of lines of code, each solving a tiny piece of the puzzle.

    The Venus Project is based on principles like tackling the root cause of a problem, sustainability, environmental awareness, simplification, the scientific method, fairness, continuous improvement etc. To detail the exact method could mean millions of pages of information. This would be far too much to write now, and far too much for anyone to read.

    As in my software development, I build prototypes. I start by building something simple. Once people have looked at the prototype I take the information gathered from other people, or testing, and progress it further, or scrap it, and work on something else.

    This is how I'd like to see the Venus Project evolve, building simple things that work, and therefore creating interest, pushing it further.

    A key component in all of this is what the Zeitgeist Movement calls "education". This is not necessarily sitting in a class room, listening to a teacher. Think of all the ways in which information comes into your mind: advertising, movies, books, talking to people, facebook, experience etc.

    Some of the questions you've asked are better understood after reading or watching the videos that are linked to from the Zeitgeist Movement and Venus Project websites, but as I said earlier, the forum is a good place to ask specific questions.

    The Venus project does not intend to force anyone to do anything. Those that don't like it can continue to live in this system. If, however, the Venus Project succeeds in achieving its' goals, then those who reject it will be a bit like the Amish living on the Enterprise :)

  • losthobbit

    One more thing... if you want to read a fictional story I wrote including an example of how a Resource Based Economy (The goal of the Venus Project) could be built, download my novel from:

    Or you can buy paperback or kindle versions from (search for "The Mischievous Nerd's Guide to World Domination").

  • slimboyfat

    The world faces unprecedented problems. Can I recommend two excellent books I read recently?

  • losthobbit

    thanks for the recommendation, slimboyfat

    I'll take a look, if I ever get through all the books on my list :)

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