Putin-powerful, but not his own power

by proplog2 32 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  proplog2

  Daniel-Haas:

  I don't want to have to explain fuzzy-logic. But, you can say Socrates is "sort of" a man. Richard Simmons is "sort of" a man.
  What is necessary for a description to be true is that it must fit.

  If Putin looked like Bill Clinton you would have to say that he isn't stern faced. However Clinton was "sort of" a master of deception.

  All three descriptors are needed. The events involved in Putins rise to the presidency are considered "unique". You would have a hard time to find someone achieve the highest office without ever winning a political election. The route to the highest elective office always requires winning a lower level election. This is the core identifier of the king at Daniel 8:23 Many may have matched one or two identifiers - but not all three.

  So your blah,blah,blah doesn't prove a thing.
• 

  proplog2

  A Christian:

  Check my web-site. Lots of information to show that Babylon the Great is a political entity. Babylon The Great is never referred to as a religious entity. The main descriptors of BTG is that she is filthy rich.

  http://members.aol.com/~proplog2/page1.htm

  If Daniel has been fulfilled you indeed have nothing to worry about. However, as you mentioned Jesus referred to "the disgusting thing that causes desolation...spoken of by Daniel the prophet". This suggest that it is not merely speculative as you suggest but congruent with Jesus' own words. The language of Matt 24 has referents that suggest something greater than the destruction of Jerusalem in 70. Especially the rapture (Matt 24:31)

  The same applies to the events in Daniel.

  Dan. 2:34 "You kept on looking until a stone was cut out NOT BY HANDS and it struck the image on its feet of iron and molded clay and crushed them.

  Dan. 7:26 "And the court itself proceeded to sit and his own rulership they finally took away in order to annihilate him and to destroy him totally."

  Dan. 8:25b "And against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without hand that he will be broken."

  Dan. 11:45 "and he will have to come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him."

  There is a distinct parallelism in these scriptures.

  It makes sense that there is no one on earth who could bring an end to the world dictator that eventually rules. Extra-terrestial help is needed.

  Remember too Daniel 12:4 "make secret the words and seal up the book until the time of the end."

  The New Testament parallels many of the events in Daniel

  2Thess 2:8 "Then indeed the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence."
• 

  aChristian

  Proplog,

  I just read your article on "Babylon the Great." I did not find it convincing in its "USA" identification.

  In it you wrote, "The 18th chapter of Revelation is lacking even ordinary religious identifiers." However, as I pointed out earlier, this is not the case. Rev. 18 refers to many things associated with large Christian Churches, such as "gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat.... dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls! ... The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters ... The light of a lamp ... the voice of bridegroom and bride ... By your magic spell all the nations were led astray."
  
  I do not believe "Babylon the Great" refers to "the world empire of false religion" as the Watchtower teaches, but only to the majority of Christian Churches shortly before the time of Christ's return. ("Get out of her my people." There are about 2 billion of God's people, Christians, worldwide. Nearly all of them are in Christian Churches. Only 10 % of that number are in the USA.) But I wont debate this matter further with you, because I believe your opinion on it is pretty well set. I guess we will politely agree to disagree. Time will tell.
• 

  proplog2

  a Christian:

  You said:
  <<I believe your opinion on it is pretty well set. I guess we will <<politely agree to disagree. Time will tell.

  My opinion is not set. I just haven't seen anything that will alter it.

  I should have addressed your point about

  <<Rev. 18 refers to many things associated with large Christian Churches, such as "gold, silver...>>

  If you do a little research you'll find that this is simply a list of items traveling merchants (ships & caravans) traded. You will find a lot of the items were foods -cinnamon, Indian Spice, flour, oil etc.

  As far as "voice of brides and bridegroom" you have totally got that wrong. Look up Jeremiah 7:34 and notice where the sound of brides and bridegrooms were commonly heard: "And I will cause to cease from the CITIES of Judah and fromt the STREETS of Jerusalem the voice of exultation and the voice of rejoicing, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride; for the land will become nothing but a devasted place."

  None of the things listed, including bride & bridgroom are associated with a religious building. In fact the silence was an indication that the land - political entity - was emptied of inhabitants.

  Do you see the mistake you are making? Or are YOU set in YOUR opinions.
• 

  Satanus

  Prop

  Since you quoted the ot that shows plainly what was meant when babylon was talked about in the nt, i just had to but in here and bring it to your attention.

  Jeremiah 7:34 and notice where the sound of brides and bridegrooms were commonly heard: "And I will cause to cease from the CITIES of Judah and fromt the STREETS of Jerusalem

  It's called preterism.

  Ok, i'm outta here.

  SS
• 

  proplog2

  SaintSatan:

  If all of the Bible has been fullfilled (as the preterist believe) than it's an over-exposed worthless relic.

  I'm not particularly interested in the history of the Jews. I don't need Jesus to teach me morality.

  I simply want to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. If the Bible shows me some way to prolong my life - great. If it can protect me from some future catastrophe - again that would be wonderful. Short of those things I don't need religion or pseudo-sacred writings.

  However there are some lingering issues of prophecy.
• 

  Faithful2Jah

  The Bible tells us that being able to properly interpret prophecy is a gift from God. With the attitude you just expressed I highly doubt He has given you that gift. That makes all of your interpretations highly suspect.
• 

  proplog2

  Faithful2Jah:

  Or maybe my attitude is one of humility and receptiveness. I admit my human desires. I am open to reality. I am not cloaking myself in a phony piety. As Jesus said the healthy don't need a physician.

  Perhaps I know these things because I have a desperate and persistent need to know.

  I don't believe that understanding prophecy is a gift of god. The Bible says that stuff because that's what imature minds need to believe. Perhaps intuition is more a gift of nature and heredity. There are clusters of personality traits that correlate with the ability to see relationships and patterns. Some of these traits include the ability to tolerate a high degree of ambiguity, and the ability to resist premature closure.

  As far as my attitude making my interpretations suspect - by all means you ought to be suspicious - OF EVERYONE. Weigh the evidence and make your conclusion. Nice people can be wrong. And toxic people can be right. You have to make your decision on the evidence.
• 

  proplog2

  I want to bring this post up again because of the following article. It is significant because it describes Putin's "countenance" as being stern. I am still convinced Putin is the Anti-Christ.

  Russia Man Resembles Vladimir Putin

  August 30, 2002

  By SARAH KARUSH

  MOSCOW (AP) - Wherever he goes, Anatoly Gorbunov is greeted by awed gazes,

  whispers and requests for his picture. Gorbunov is just a regular guy - who

  happens to bear a striking resemblance to President Vladimir Putin.

  Gorbunov, a businessman from the southern city of Volgodonsk, is not

  related to Putin and has never met the former KGB agent, who was catapulted

  to the presidency 2 1/2 years ago.

  ``I'm told I look like him,'' Gorbunov said in a recent interview in

  Moscow. ``What can I do? ... It's nature's joke.''

  Gorbunov and Putin share the same sharp cheekbones, slightly flared nose

  and thin brown hair, but the resemblance is far from total. Gorbunov's

  sparkling blue eyes and warm grin contrast with

  Putin's gray eyes and

  steely countenance.

  Putin is also a decade older than the 39-year-old

  Gorbunov.

  Thanks to Putin's unflagging popularity, Gorbunov's resemblance to the

  president garners him requests for autographs. Putin, more than halfway

  through his term, enjoys high approval ratings.

  Proof of public adoration is found in the number of Putin books, Putin

  portraits and Putin T-shirts. Even a new pop song, ``I Want Someone Like

  Putin,'' has teen-agers swooning over the president's strength and

  reliability.

  In the summer of 1999, Gorbunov's appearance went suddenly from

  unremarkable to the talk of the town - mirroring Putin's unexpected rise

  from the relatively obscure post of chief of the Federal Security Service

  to prime minister.

  Soon after that appointment, Gorbunov and a friend took a vacation at a

  resort known to be frequented by government officials.

  ``We got there and everyone started dropping dishes when we went to the

  restaurant,'' Gorbunov recalled.

  Since then, Gorbunov, who runs two television channels and several radio

  stations in Volgodonsk, has learned to enjoy his stardom.

  He recalled strolling with a friend on Moscow's Red Square when a group of

  tourists from Siberia began staring at him, trying to figure out if he

  really was the president. Pointing to Russia's most famous church, at the

  time enveloped in scaffolding, he said in his best Putin voice, ``First

  we'll finish with St. Basil's, and then we'll do more repairs on the

  Kremlin.'' That seemed to convince the tourists, he said.

  Gorbunov has mastered Putin's facial expressions - the creased forehead,

  the stern frown - as well as his manner of speech.

  Last New Year's Eve he appeared on his television channel with the

  president's traditional holiday address - making sure first to put his

  watch on his right hand as Putin wears it.

  But although he has fun with the attention, Gorbunov concedes it can

  sometimes be a burden - especially when he leaves Volgodonsk, where he is

  well-known. Since the incident on Red Square, Gorbunov says he avoids the

  center of Moscow, especially if he is dressed in a suit.

  ``Some people smile, some point,'' he said. ``Some say, 'Yo, man! It's

  Putin!' That kind of thing is annoying and tiresome.''

  As for Putin himself, Gorbunov said he supports what he sees as the

  president's efforts to ``return Russia to its past greatness.''
• 

  proplog2

  Bringing this up again because Putin has been chosen Person of the Year.
  
  What follows are portions of that article:
  
  "Russia lives in history—and history lives in Russia. Throughout much of the 20th century, the Soviet Union cast an ominous shadow over the world. It was the U.S.'s dark twin. But after the fall of the Berlin Wall, Russia receded from the American consciousness as we became mired in our own polarized politics. And it lost its place in the great game of geopolitics, its significance dwarfed not just by the U.S. but also by the rising giants of China and India. That view was always naive. Russia is central to our world—and the new world that is being born. It is the largest country on earth; it shares a 2,600-mile (4,200 km) border with China; it has a significant and restive Islamic population; it has the world's largest stockpile of weapons of mass destruction and a lethal nuclear arsenal; it is the world's second largest oil producer after Saudi Arabia; and it is an indispensable player in whatever happens in the Middle East. For all these reasons, if Russia fails, all bets are off for the 21st century. And if Russia succeeds as a nation-state in the family of nations, it will owe much of that success to one man, Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.
  
  No one would label Putin a child of destiny. The only surviving son of a Leningrad factory worker, he was born after what the Russians call the Great Patriotic War, in which they lost more than 26 million people. The only evidence that fate played a part in Putin's story comes from his grandfather's job: he cooked for Joseph Stalin, the dictator who inflicted ungodly terrors on his nation.
  
  When this intense and brooding KGB agent took over as President of Russia in 2000, he found a country on the verge of becoming a failed state. With dauntless persistence, a sharp vision of what Russia should become and a sense that he embodied the spirit of Mother Russia, Putin has put his country back on the map. And he intends to redraw it himself. Though he will step down as Russia's President in March, he will continue to lead his country as its Prime Minister and attempt to transform it into a new kind of nation, beholden to neither East nor West.
  
  
  
  
  
  Vladimir Putin gives a first impression of contained power: he is compact and moves stiffly but efficiently. He is fit, thanks to years spent honing his black-belt judo skills and, these days, early-morning swims of an hour or more. And while he is diminutive—5 ft. 6 in. (about 1.7 m) seems a reasonable guess—he projects steely confidence and strength. Putin is unmistakably Russian, with chiseled facial features and those penetrating eyes. Charm is not part of his presentation of self—he makes no effort to be ingratiating. One senses that he pays constant obeisance to a determined inner discipline.
  
  
  In his eight years as President, he has guided his nation through a remarkable transformation. He has restored stability and a sense of pride among citizens who, after years of Soviet stagnation, rode the heartbreaking roller coaster of raised and dashed expectations when Gorbachev and then Yeltsin were in charge. A basket case in the 1990s, Russia's economy has grown an average of 7% a year for the past five years. The country has paid off a foreign debt that once neared $200 billion. Russia's rich have gotten richer, often obscenely so. But the poor are doing better too: workers' salaries have more than doubled since 2003. True, this is partly a result of oil at $90 a barrel, and oil is a commodity Russia has in large supply. But Putin has deftly managed the windfall and spread the wealth enough so that people feel hopeful.
  
  Russia's revival is changing the course of the modern world. After decades of slumbering underachievement, the Bear is back.
  
  Putin himself is sardonic but humorless. In our hours together, he didn't attempt a joke, and he misread several of our attempts at playfulness. As Henry Kissinger, who has met and interacted with Russian leaders since Brezhnev, puts it, "He does not rely on personal charm. It is a combination of aloofness, considerable intelligence, strategic grasp and Russian nationalism"
  
  Path to Power
  
  That Russia needed fixing was acknowledged by all. But how was it that Putin got the call? What was it that lifted him to power, and to the dacha in Novo-Ogarevo?
  
  Putin's rise continues to perplex even devoted Kremlin observers.
  
  Although Putin often says that he had no connections when he arrived in the capital in mid-1996, he had several powerful allies who landed him work in the Kremlin. He became deputy to the head of Yeltsin's general-affairs department. Within two years he was asked to head the FSB, the spy-agency successor to the disbanded KGB.
  
  within four months a declining Yeltsin asked Putin to take over as acting President. Putin tells us he initially declined but that Yeltsin raised it again, saying, "Don't say no." By the last day of 1999 Putin was running the country.
  
  We ask if it had ever occurred to Putin that history would place him in such a role. "It never occurred to me," he says. "It still surprises me."
  
  To the West, meanwhile, Putin was a mystery. Russia watchers debated endlessly: Was he a pro-Western reformer? (He had worked for Sobchak.) Or a hard-liner? (He was a career KGB man.)
  
  There are no mass purges in Russia today, no broad climate of terror. But Putin is reconstituting a strong state, and anyone who stands in his way will pay for it. "Putin has returned to the mechanism of one-man rule," says Talbott of the Brookings Institution. "Yet it's a new kind of state, with elements that are contemporary and elements from the past."
  
  And there's plenty that could go wrong. The depth of corruption, the pockets of militant unrest, the ever present vulnerability of the economy to swings in commodity prices—all this threatens to unravel the gains that have been made. But Putin has played his own hand well. As Prime Minister, he is set to see out the rest of the drama of Russia's re-emergence. And almost no one in Russia is in a position to stop him. If he succeeds, Russia will become a political competitor to the U.S. and to rising nations like China and India. It will be one of the great powers of the new world.