2 Thessalonians issue

by Mat 41 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  PSacramento

  Today's Christians have a faith based on nothing tangible.

  That's just a silly and mean spirited thing to say.
• 

  Hoping4Change

  C'mon, we all know what happened, Paul got 'new light'!
• 

  PSacramento

  You jest about the "new light" but the fact is that from the OT to the NT we do have just that, though not in the JW way, LOL !

  We have a progressive revelation/understanding of God and God's "will".

  It is quite possible that Paul spoken from his understanding and was shown to be in error and was fixing that problem or that they simply misunderstood what he meant from his previous letter.

  Paul mentions a few times in other letters how he regrets the tone of a prior letter and that his heart was heavy because he was concerned that it would push people away.

  Paul was a bit of an ass, but it was his zeal and drive that Christ used and was there a more prolific evangelizer than Paul?

  I don't think so.

  It is too bad more of his contemporaries didn't write as much, I would have loved to read the writtings of Barnabas and his thoughts on Paul.
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Ehrman argues that he does not think 2 Thessalonians was written by the same person who wrote 1 Thessalonians, and gives his reasons:

  If Paul meant what he said in 1 Thessalonians, that Jesus’ return would be sudden and unexpected, it is hard to believe that he could have written what is said in 2 Thessalonians—that the end is not coming right away and that there will be clear-cut signs to indicate that the end is near, signs that had not yet appeared. The author of 2 Thessalonians writes, “I told you these things when I was still with you” (2:5). If that were true, why would the Thessalonians have been upset when some members of their community died (1 Thessalonians)? They would have known that the end was not coming right away, but was to be preceded by the appearance of the anti-Christ figure and other signs.

  If 2 thessalonians was a fraud, who was it written to? Don't you think the people it was written to would remember what he told them? The author expects his audience to remember what he said.
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  sure he was a dickhead at times

  FTFY ;)
• 

  PSacramento

  LOL !
  Again, you guys are being to hard on Paul and choosing the minority of passages over the majority.

  Though it is quite understandable, if there is one apostles that it is easy to get the wrong idea about, it is probably Paul.
• 

  Mat

  Hi, Deputy Dog, the only trouble with that as evidence is we have no record of whether it even reached the Thessalonians, or any remark from them. It could have easily been a fraud entered in to the scroll selling market, or by a later cleric trying to alter church doctrine. That said it also is possable it is genuine and that Paul only claimed he told them such things. We know how the Watchtower implies they predicted the First World War, when in fact they didn't.

  So, refering to what he supposedly said to them in his visit in no evidence either way.

  Hi P Sacramento, why do you like Paul so much? His teachings jar with Jesus' so much, and he constantly keeps saying how inspired he is to give orders! He never refered to Jesus' miracles or quoted anything recognisable in the gospels! I've puzzled over why there is so much focus on him when Peter was meant to have taken over. Paul strikes me a a very charasmatinc con artist with some horrible opinions that he passes off as being God's inspiration!

  Hi Wobble, I'm not so sure Christians ever did have anything tangable. Even the Hebrew scriptures are not reliable. Let's face it, there was no Messiah. 70 AD proved that. Christianity seems to be some effort to rationalise the fact that the Jews got destroyed inspite of their faith in God. Face it. The biggest evidence against worshiping the God of the Bible is the Bible itself! It's just a case of reading it witout the conditioned perspective that Christianity gives us.
• 

  PSacramento

  Hi P Sacramento, why do you like Paul so much? His teachings jar with Jesus' so much, and he constantly keeps saying how inspired he is to give orders! He never refered to Jesus' miracles or quoted anything recognisable in the gospels! I've puzzled over why there is so much focus on him when Peter was meant to have taken over. Paul strikes me a a very charasmatinc con artist with some horrible opinions that he passes off as being God's inspiration!

  Actually, I don't like Paul at all, John's words have always touched me far more deeply than any other apostle.

  I think your views of Paul are a tad tainted and I am not sure how you view what Paul says as being contray to Jesus since Paul proclaims Jesus over and over and over again.

  Paul was the apostle tot he Gentiles so it makes since that Paul is more "known" by them, he was also a prolific writer, far more than Peter.

  And I am not sure why you think Peter was meant to take over, Christ said he was the rock (foundation) of his church and he was to take care of his sheep ( church), NO ONE was appointed leader. Christ is the head of the church. James took a 'center stage'' because he was Jesus's brother, but even that was only because of the Jewish view point on Heirarchy within a religion. Christ was and still is the head of the Church.
• 

  wobble

  I agree again with your estimation Mat, the Hebrew/jewish scriptures were really centered on the Temple, when that went there was a sudden necessity to fill the void. What better than a heavenly temple with a heavenly High Priest, unassailable by the Romans or anyone ?

  Hence Jesus as the Messiah gone to heaven was a story given weight by the gospels etc.

  P.Sac accuses me of making a silly and mean spirited remark when I said today's christians have a faith based on nothing tangible.

  I did not use the word tangible lightly, it means something you can touch, in other words I meant solid evidence that would stand up even in a court of law, I was not being mean spirited, just stating a fact.

  Not silly either, they have no tangible ,evidence based faith. It is purely emotion and expriences they believe they have had, nothing real.
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Mat

  That said it also is possable it is genuine and that Paul only claimed he told them such things. We know how the Watchtower implies they predicted the First World War, when in fact they didn't.

  Apples and watermelons rotten watermelons.

  Like most of Ehrman's allegations/suggestions, he runs very short on evidence. So without evidence, why would you suggest Paul would do such a thing? Are you're trying to suggest Paul is acting like a JW simply because the WT lies to it's people?