Amazing's Triumph - Mixed Feelings

by Perry 65 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AMNESIAN

  ~
• 

  Perry

  Amnesian,

  Unfortunately, I had to leave the thread for several hours much to the chagrin of my girlfriend who just simply loves it when I start on Jw.com and don't stop for 12 to 18 hours.

  Had I not been disturbed by the impending disturbance of making a living, I would have already responded to Amazings' latest posts and perhaps you would have held your intellectual jousting for a more a appropriate critique as it relates to this thread.

  As you stated, you are following this post for the stated purpose of the "pure and basic hope to derive some useful perspective on my own post-JW circumstance and endeavors". I appreciate your patronage and do hope we never have the opportunity to do battle. I would much rather entertain you as an accomplice.

  Could you posibly hold your challenges to Amazing for a separate thread, at least until you determine where this is going?

  Just a suggestion.
• 

  waiting

  Hey Perry,

  I think there are a lot of us like you - wanting to figure out how to keep our families and not be hypocrites to the WTBTS.

  I work with a jw, my jw m-i-l lives a couple of houses away (I see her everyday), all my husband's family are 3/4th generation jw's.

  For the most part, we keep a low profile - which is hard. My husband & I haven't attended meetings for 2 yrs. I've stopped going to his family's lunches, etc. My husband's brother is an elder - and will make jabs, and it's all I can do to not answer with like kind of statements. Back to the ol' sister routine - or not go. So I don't go.

  I was very fortunate that my children left before me - and graciously gave me time & freedom to live my life as I perceived, a jw. They never pressured me, argued with me, etc. My son said he figured I'd leave when ready. Guess he was right.

  And get to know a lawyer, just to be able to carbon copy at the bottom of any correspondence - worth it's weight in gold, imho. My son-i-l is a lawyer married to my df'd daughter, who is a paralegal/court assistant, and my gay son is 2nd yr law student - comes in handy as they know the WTBTS's way of dealing quite well.

  Speaking of lawyers, one poster (in the middle of a divorce) told me: "My god, not only do you allow them into your family, you breed them!"

  Take care - we're all different here, yet remarkably similar in key ways. And btw, I applaud the way this quite civil thread is progressing. This is a situation which we all face in one form or another - and our styles of leaving will make a mark on our lives and our families. For most of us, we have some choice in the matter.

  waiting
• 

  ozziepost

  But as the Anointed JW keeps perfoming, even the Society begins to accept them. A calssic example is that of Sam Herd. He was newly Anointed long after 1935. But he finally got into Circuit and Distr4ict work, and now he is on the GB. I have little doubt that any JW would view him as a nutcase, simply because the System finally accepted and promoted him, validating him to the highest levels.

  I've just got back to the board after having some sleep and am so glad I did! This point of Amazing's I found very insightful as I've long pondered over this situation.

  I agree with Tina's summation that "1.They were cranks(mentally emotionally ill) or 2. they were pretty full of themselves". From what I saw, local elders would discourage acceptance of a younger anointed in their cong. but as you say, over time I can see that there would be acceptance, if grudgingly given.

  May I too express my appreciation to all who have contributed here for a most interesting and respectful thread. Many thanks!

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness."
  Anonymous
• 

  JT

  One issue often times involves being able to leave the area all together. For many the will not be able to leave the little town that they are in- so for them the need to drift away in my view becomes all the more important. Reason being is they are able to build up a new set of friends and begin to get used to not being around jw- the net is useful in at least if you can't physically get out of town you can speak with others

  it is important to find a penpal and stay in contact- some of my closet friends i have met thru the net-

  in my view DA should only be a last resort- it is very important that a person read read read to see how HIgh Control groups affect ones thinking a reasoning ability- FRONTAL ATTACKING a jw rarely in my exp works IF ONES GOAL IS TO HELP, but if one just wants to clear thier chest THEN BY ALL MEANS BLOW THE JW OUT OF THE WATER
  but don't expect to come back and clean it up and try to salvage some type of relationship- in most cases the jw files have kicked in and shut them down AT LEAST FOR THE TIME BEING

  So go to site that help one to get firmly in mind why FACTS AND PROOF have little if any effect on the avg jw after years of indoctricnation that has prepared them for the day that a person will approach them with some anit-wt info-

  for all you lurkers out there please take advantage of contacting any of us that you feel comfortable with-
  keep in mind this one fact WE HAVE ALL WALKED IN WT SHOES

  so we share a common bond and that is one of being HOODWINKED AND BAMBOOZLED

  JAMES
• 

  Perry

  JT - We are definitely speaking the same language and it seems as if a lot of people would like to jump on the "let's friggin' do something" band wagon. I think from most of the posts that many of us feel like soldiers without a battle plan or an army without a homeland. Greater beasts have been slayed by fewer numbers than we over far less injustices. I want to pursue this in a bit, but first I want to respond to Amazing.

  Amazing, at the risk of appearing to flinch from an intellectual duel, I wish to respond to only a few of your comments and not challenge your slight defensiveness which is wholly understandable when bearing in mind that my post was at least mildly controversial and intimated a certain, shall we say naivete toward those with far less opportunity.

  I do not agree with Amnesians' narcissistic characterization of you in previous threads, as if were it to be true, it would somehow improve the moral character of her condemnation of your practicalness which, by virtue of the fact she is intently following this thread, shows she is as interested as the rest of us in achieving a personal success story similar to yours.

  Her contribution in my mind was to point out to the rest of us the position of privedlege point of view, which in my mind you vastly underestimate, to a degree that shows just to what extent of oblivion you were and, at least in some ways are still living in. I will save my personification of a$$ kissing and "appointed-by-Jehovah-means same-as-Jehovah for a future horror story if you still need convincing.

  Amazing wrote:

  "I guess it is part of being human. The whole reason that I ever published the article about how I got my family out, was because several people, close friends and ex-JWs urged me to do so. They felt that it might help many who are looking for a plan. I published it in the hopes that it would be helpful. Understanding that every experience is different, some may only find my methods partly helpful, and others may not find any useful parts at all".

  I and apparently most others do not question your motives and are very grateful for your perspective. Believe me Amazing, there are very few success stories in the land of smoke and mirrors. We are enjoying yours.

  "I would love to see more and more ex-JW publish their methods ... especially those that were raised JWs, because others could benefit from their experience, the successes and failures. I can never write about it from that perspective, because I don't have those experiences. I am just one guy who pitches in one set of ideas and methods".

  Have you ever asked for that perspective from someone other than on this thread? Just curious.

  "As I explained to Tina above, and more now to you, my "Anointing" was often more of a handicap, as I had to live a very guarded JW life, lest I be cast into the "Nutcase" bin or been seen and an "egotist par excellence." Tina was right on on how the Society published this kind of blackmail fear into the JWs. Had I never professed to be Anointed, I would have excelled more in the beginning. But, it was used against me more often than it may have helped".

  It's quite likely that your "annointing" was used against you by other political pundits vying for the choicest nipple at mothers' teats. However, I was referring to the average idealistic Talking Head, of which I was the foremost automaton. There is simply no way your personal experience could enlighten you to the joys of mental domination, and institutionalized fear and ignorance inculcated from before birth and then reinforced with savage hysteria and demonistic imagery fomented on the altar of love. Yes, you cannot conceptualize the gripping fear of growing up against such a great cloud of witnesses called your relatives.

  If a young JW, maybe new to the religion, and no JW family wants to leave ... he/she can slip away a lot easier with a small plan. But, when a JW is raised in the religion, and all their friends and all their relatives are JWs ... and if they marry a lifelong JW whose relatives are all JWs, and their children are all JWs, maybe young adults ... then plans like mine, as written won't work well. About the only part of my plan that will be of use is the concept of planning itself ... taking things slowly ... listening and gradually injecting thought into their relatives mind ... and likely taking a lot more time to accomplish. I don't envy those situations. I hope that any ex-JW in such a situation who successfully got out a significant portion of her/his family would write about it and share what worked for them for the benefit of those who need additinal ideas.

  Indeed!

  "My family and I were close because we were a good family in my opinin. I dount that my children went to bed at night gleaming with pride because Dad was a Big Shot Anointed. They were like any kids ... they cared and loved my wife and I because of what we developed between us".

  I agree. And that is one of the things that makes you so special...your commitment to your family as people and not as mere receptacles to catch the regurgitated rhetoric of Mother who has made it so easy to raise a family by simply "inculcating" the words of Jehovah(....oooops WBTS)in their hearts.

  .... "unless I am misunderstanding something. "Freedom and an Elder" strikes me as a unique perception. I saw it as an iron anchor bolted to my neck ... step out of line, and get dunked into the wide open sea to sink to the bottom".

  Are you still not getting it Amazing? From your perspective (looking up), it must have been a pain in the a$$ true, from Amnesian's perspective (looking down) you were the pain in the ass, from the perspective of those like me, indoctrinated for generations and with much family to validate the dog and pony show, all we could do is look up.....toward men like you as one appointed by God himself. Do you understand now?

  "No, I did not take the Guillotine approach and get ripped from my family".

  And that's my point. You were not opperating from the stand point of a doe-eyed deceived little child. You had the birds eye view of the reality of the Borg and not the manufactured corporate-spun version. A totally different perspective.

  Your bank robber illustration failed to mention the seeing eye dog that was oblvious to the real meaning of events and simply reacted to save his master that was shot and was also killed in the process. He simply died and never knew what or why it hit him. He just wanted to do what was right; but because he couldn't understand the real nature of the events....paid the ultimate price. Sure the VP felt sorry for him and was even struck by his courage, but had to admit in the end, it was just a stupid dumb dog blinded by the illusion of loyalty.

  By far, your statement below is one of the most noblest statements you have ever made IMO:

  "But, I was prepared to walk into hell to get them out. If it would have meant a few more years as a JW, or other more exotic acts ... perhaps taking the molestation thing to the media ... or whatever ... I would have done what it took and would not have stopped until they demanded that I stop".

  Ahhhh, now I can march with a man like that. Amazing, whether you want to admit it or not, you are an anomaly. You were as an annointed elder and you are now as the Chief Apostate. (Did Ray pass you the baton?) I do believe that I would follow you into those gates of hell, if for no other reason that out of a sense of morbid curiosity.

  You will not be able to slip quietly into mediocrity. Your experience is far too valuable and your ways of doing battle far too effective. Being 1/2 Italian, my initial response would be to march in with a Roman legion and immediately engage the enemy in single, decisive, pitched battle and then display the enemy as the cowards that they are for fighting in such a sleazy unmanly way, while I march trumphantly through the streets of Rome. Ahhh, those were the days weren't they?..... Now? Totally useless.

  "And given your talents and expertise, maybe you can get together with some in a similar situation to your own ... and devise a plan that works for you ... maybe some of what I provide will help, and maybe not. Maybe just the concept of a plan is where to start".

  And I was thinking that this was just a flattering way to say, "keep warm and well fed". Then, you couldn't stand it, and posted some truly thought-provoking strategies on your next post. I know that you are under no obligation to take on a fight other than that for your immediate family; however, I will give you at least three sound reasons why it might be something you find yourself considering....tomorrow
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Perry: Just saw your last post. I read it twice. I will make a response tomorrow sometime. Thanks.
• 

  Perry

  Me too I'm tired.

  See Ya

  Perry
• 

  Lee Elder

  Very interesting thread that demonstrates the need to educate current JWs about how distance themselves from the Watchtower without destroying the important relationships in their lives. Someone could devote an entire web site to the topic and feature experiences from those who survived this perilous journey.

  Lee
• 

  Perry

  Amazing,

  I've had few hours sleep and feel much better. I'll get right to the point for the entire reason that I started this thread.

  Like so many others, I'm TIRED of sitting on my rear end and would like to DO SOMETHING! Your stories are nice and even encouraging, but dammit, how do we replicate some of that success for others?

  I want to explain why I feel that there is a vast difference, yet a core oneness between guys like you and guys like me.

  First, an example:

  I started an exotic bird breeding facility a few years ago in part because I found the socialization aspects of rearing, highly intelligent, rare, expensive parrots to be very rewarding. It never ceases to amazing me how these animals, (now scientifically proven to posses linguistic, deductive/inductive cognition and to be at least as smart as a dolphin or a chimpanzee) can be transformed from a shy, constantly alert-so-as-not-to-be-eaten jungle creature, into masses of spoiled rotten veritable love sponges. Why?

  It is precisely because of their intelligence that they are maleable like wet clay when young. Being such, thousands of years of naturally selected behaviors and predispositions can be mitigated and sometimes virtually elimanated to produce a fantastic companion in possesion of intense loyalty and a never ending source of affection.

  When raised in the truth with all your relatives, we have been molded in such a way to virtually elimanate survival instincts that others may find far easier...like yourself. Never short on cajones, I've never had a problem with public speaking, whether to Fortune 500 Executives, large crouds, or to 30 million viewers on Cable television when I owned a direct marketing product development company. Yet, I still find it difficult to think on my feet with clarity of purpose when dealing with family.

  All they need to do is pull a couple triggers, whether it be a facial expression, body language or the right linguistic button, and my tongue swells up to the size of a melon and a feeling of intense angst sweeps over me. Believe me, it really pisses me off because I know it is strictly a Palovonian reflex. Dammit!

  I suspect many others may feel similarly. You escaped all that, soared to the top of the dung heap, surveyed the landscape from a birds eye view, received training in the ways of political posturing, and then used those very skills to finally make a sweeping exit carrying your family and others as on the wings of an eagle.

  Lee Elder proposed that an entire web-site could be dedicated to the subject and feature people who have sucessfully exited with family members. The reality of the situation is that those instances are rare. I'd like to help change that.

  Any organized effort to educate people how to exit so that they won't have to be alone will need a Champion, not in the sense of someone to adulate, but as a living breathing source of hope.... a tangible example of victory that says,"I did it, and so can you". Someone who fought fire with fire in the very shadow of the Tower.

  There is a lot of things brewing in the WT dung heap these days, molestation/upcomming Dateline story, UN hypocrisy, blood double standards, unnessary deaths becomming more known. The WBTS is verifiably starting to twitch and many if not most of the members are taking notice in various degrees. But I guarantee you that the next thought they have is "Where else can I go?".

  The time is ripe to provide people with tangible tools and stategies for recovering their lives, not by a Christian group, nor by a generic cult expert, though both could be valuable resources. But rather by those who have lived the life, talked the talk, and walked the walk and succeeded.

  Why not schedule a meeting of various people that might could substantially contribute to a hands on weekend seminar?. Why not develop a questionaire and post it on this board and ask people how and if they would be willing to contribute to such an organized effort? Why not call Steven Hassan and ask if he'd be willing to assist in structuring strategies? I know of Phd. therapists who would probably be willing to donate time. Above all we need living examples of success stories, many of them. Atteendees could role play with one another, practice techniques, draw strength from one another and more importantly start to smell the sweet scent of victory rather than the stench of lonliness and defeat. Hope is a powerful tool in the hands of a skilled tactician.

  Of course, you could be content with writing stories about the life and times of Amazing and receiving all the "Excellent Post" replies. As I mentioned previously, you certainly have no moral responsibility toward anyone outside your family. But, wouldn't it be nice to at least call a meeting with experts from various fields to discuss the feasibility of such a training seminar?

  I promised you at least three reasons why you might want to consider a more organized involvement:

  1. Legacy - Obviously from your posts this is something important to you. Yes, you already have left one for your immediate family. But given your privedleged position and insider viewpoint, can you really say you have left one for anyone else other than a defeatest dejection mired in the thought, "Yea, that was easy for an annointed elder but not for me"?

  2. Pentinence - You brought 15 people into the Truth? How many of those people cut ties with their non-JW families? When their children grow up in the Truth how many things will they miss out on including their own families as is so often the case with kids who eventually leave. Do you feel regret for installing the WBTS program in their family?

  3. Love - Mt. 19:19b You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

  Like you, I still feel that Jesus is a great example to follow. I understand the importance of modeling to achieve goals. While I am not a member of a church, I do attend a non-denominational church and occsasionally teach Bible study. If you still think Jesus is a great guy to follow, to what extent will you be happy in following his command above? How would you have liked to have been treated if you you didn't have the necessary tools to exit with your family as you did?

  I certainly will not condem you for continuing the writing approach and living your own comfortable life with your family. But personally, I feel that the time is ripe to rise up and strike while the WBTS is about to go through much more shake up and give Lurkers a chance to get profesional training from qualified people to exit and take at least one family member with them.

  People are weak when alone. The society totally understands this. If people start leaving by the twos and threes and fours, then families can stand united and turn the shunning process around on the perpetrator, the society. Then they will see the devastating effects of the shunning process for themselves to the glory of Christ's legacy of love.

  I don't want to even start a project that I don't have a fair chance of succeding in. Uniting qualified people might provide the edge people need to succeed or at least to maintain hope, which in itself is a powerful force to deal with.

  I propose a meeting with all intrested and qualified people invited. We could have guest speakers, coffee and cake, draw strength from one another and discuss strategies that work. Maybe a comprehensive plan will develop, who knows. When our founding fathers got together as a group of qualified men to discuss the problems of a repressive regime, a plan developed that became the model of civilized government that resulted, against all odds, in kicking King George's butt all the way back to jolly ole' England!

  I invite all reading this thread to post your opinion of such a meeting. I for one, am tired of doing nothing. Life only rewards action, not inaction.

  Amazing, you provide the leadership, I vow to help you find the muscle.