A reason christs ransom makes no sense to me (page 3)

Deputy Dog

Terry

If Abraham is Jehovah and Isaac is Jesus......who is the Ram?

Michelle's right, and I'd like to know, in what way do you think Abraham is Jehovah (in Gen 22)?

PSacramento

John 3:

16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

17 “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. 20 For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. 21 But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God

Lore

He knew what would happen to Christ, yes, but that is not the same as causing it to happen.

Letting your child swim in a pool of piranha.

Throwing your child into a pool of piranha.

Yeah. . . criminal negligence IS a bit less evil than murder. But it still sucks.

If it could have been any other way, then I believe it would have been.

For example if god COULD have made Jesus invincible he would have. But unfortunately that's not within his power.

because Jesus asked His Father to take the cup away from Him, if possible.

Jesus: "Daddy I jumped in the pool of piranha like you asked, but now it really hurts. Can't you just pull me out?"

God: "Now son. You know your mother drank my beer when I SPECIFICALLY labeled it as mine. . . How can I ever forgive your brother for that unless you get eaten by piranha?"

ProdigalSon

Maybe, just this one time, Jerkhoover could have just waived his diabolical need for a "perfect" blood "atonement" sacrifice? What's with the blood anyway? There's supposed to be rivers of it running at the BIG A, up to the bridles of the horses. What about all that blood? What kind of a god is this wack-job?

tec

Can we sort this thing out step by step, Tammy?

Ah, okay :)

There is only one thing standing between man and God and it isn't SIN. Sin is only a superficial attempt at explanation.

Sin is wrongdoing. I don't really think its that mystical of a thing, really.

The REAL problem is that God does not permit free will to go unpunished. Disagreeing with God, in His opinion, means you deserve death.

Um... free will is something we all have. We can use it to do right or to do wrong. Using our free will does not mean we have to do wrong, or disagree with God. If God is right, and we use our free will to do right, then it doesn't mean that we've become robots doing as we're told. It just means we chose right.

SALVATION is a lawyer's trick on the part of bible writers. (Grace bypasses man's will and leaves "deserve" out of it altogether.)

If its a trick, it needs a purpose, right? (grace being a gift, yes, not something earned)

When humans and God disagree it is called SIN. That is a difference of opinion with God's opinion being lethal to man's.

I'm not sure about that. You can disagree with someone and still do as they ask you to do. Perhaps you just don't understand, and recognize that.

Rescuing man means finding a way around God's opinion that man must die no matter what.

You are assuming God's opinion here. God is the one who rescued man, through Christ.

With Abraham and Isaac God counted Abraham's WILLINGNESS to murder his own son as righteousness and NO DEAD ISAAC was necessary. The Ram took the place of Isaac. If Abraham is Jehovah and Isaac is Jesus......who is the Ram?

Christ is the Ram. (God will provide the sacrifice, himself) But also Isaac in that God was as willing to sacrifice HIS son, as Abraham was to sacrifice his own. Also, it was Abraham's complete obedience to God and trust IN God that was righteous.

This a primitive calculus by any standard. Having people cut the throat of an animal, bleed it dry and burn the meat IS BARBARISM and not a beautiful scenario of a benevolent God.

Psalm 40:6 "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced; burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require."

Hosea 6:6 "I desire mercy, not sacrifice."

Mixing ancient barbarism with love and salvation and making it sound sane is the job of religious people with little desire to think about what they are really saying.

Or they could just be listening to Christ, and looking at God through Christ, instead of looking at God through what some men thought and believed about Him.

Tammy

tec

Lore:

Letting your child swim in a pool of piranha. Throwing your child into a pool of piranha. Yeah. . . criminal negligence IS a bit less evil than murder. But it still sucks.

How about sending your son into a pool of piranha to find and save those who are looking for a way to clear/safe waters - even knowing he's going to get shredded doing that saving.

For example if god COULD have made Jesus invincible he would have. But unfortunately that's not within his power.

How do you figure its not within God's power? Christ IS alive, in spirit. But I'm guessing you meant invincible in the flesh? I'm not sure how many times Jesus said that the flesh counts for nothing and that it is the spirit that matters. So while you might believe that this was a failure, that does not make it so.

Tammy

unshackled

Back waaaay up on this. So God creates the universe. Waits at least 10 billion years.

Earth is formed, God waits for about 4.5 billion years.

A mere 2000 years ago he finally decides to pay attention to this little speck of a planet, orbiting a regular star, in a back eddy galaxy.

THEN sends his son to this ONE little planet to save his flawed creation? That is why the Jesus story makes no sense to me.

"Of all the gin joints, in all the worlds, in this universe...he walks into mine."

Aussie Oz

Aussie - Try not to write Christ off as a savior just yet ;) His work is not finished. Also, I don't know if its possible, what you want from a savior. There are some people who love the 'darkness' and hate the 'light'. If someone hates the light, then they're not going to like a savior. So how do you change a person like that?

Debate can and will rage for ever on christ as a savior. He is one of several so called inspirational characters of history that have spurned works of wisdom.

assuming that the bible is right and all, that christ was/is the savior... Does not the bible say that ''with god all things are possible''? The context is salvation. Yes, i am aware of the accounts showing that not all will be saved etc.

Is not all things possible, ALL THINGS POSSIBLE? We are talking about the creator of the entire universe here. Are you saying that the only thing that god cannot do is change the heart of a mere man?

Either he cannot or he will not.

i cannot worship that god.

oz

Farkel

aussie oz,

I also am a deist.

In case you missed it, here is my take on the ransom:

"The Ransom for Nitwits"

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/186335/1/The-Ransom-for-Nitwits

Farkel

Aussie Oz

Thankyou Farkel

i did miss it

sort of makes sense of nonsense...

oz

A reason christs ransom makes no sense to me

Share this