Personal Grudges and Judicial Committees: is There a Link?

by passwordprotected 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I want to answer some points later when I have time, but just at the moment I want to suggest that if you step back a bit Jehovah's Witnesses have become much more liberal in the past few decades. Consider the change in accepting alternative serice in place of service in the military. In many countries that means young JWs no longer have to fear going to jail, a huge change for those affected. And it removes a serious source of conflict that used to exist between JWs and various governments and society in general.

    I think the pressures for Jehovah's Witnesses to continue liberalization are much greater than any foreseeable pressure to become more hardline. Sure they might hassle members with a certain dress code if they want to visit bethel, but the desire for acceptance from wordly governments means they are likely to continue compromising on more and more issues.

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    What about the supposedly liberal stance on education? Has that gotten more liberal or more hardline?

  • Quendi
    Quendi

    I don't believe the organization is getting more liberal. The stance on higher educatiion, shunning the disfellowshipped and disassociated, rules on who may get married in the Kingdom Hall, and discouraging independent Bible study are just some of the restrictions that are being tightened on Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't doubt that we will see more in the future.

    Quendi

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    On education it seems the Watchtower liberalized a bit during the 1990s and then backtracked. I don't know why that was. Maybe they had some data that showed people who attend university tend to leave the organization and that caused the change of heart.

    passwordprotected you said earlier:

    If I remember correctly, your choice to remain a Witness (and I'm guessing, fade?) is so that your aunt will continue to speak to you. That might influence how your read my comments on faders, no?

    Yes you remember rightly, although my wife's family is also a reason for not wanting to leave officially. But personally I would like to see something dramatic happen in the Watchtower organization (such as a crackdown on faders) because at least it would create a bit of excitement and maybe bring things to a head for a lot of people. I just doubt that it will ever happen. There have been rumours on this forum about the organization cracking down on faders ever since the forum began. It was probably a couple of years before you left the Witnesses that there were a lot of threads about a supposed oath of loyalty that Witnesses were going to be asked to make. Nothing came of that.

    You want the Watchtower organization to become more hardline to vindicate your low opinion of them and help flush out more members, perhaps including people you know who are still in.

    Really, I do? You know that for a fact?

    No I threw it out as an possibility for you to respond to.

    My low opinion of "them"; who is "them"?

    I just meant to say that it would confirm your apparent view that the leaders of the Watchtower organization do not have benevolent intentions toward their followers. What I am saying is that they do not need to do anything drastic in order to confirm that you made the right decision to leave. That decision rests on its own merits in your own circumstances at the time. Whether the Watchtower organization becomes kinder or crueler from now on does not alter that.

    My personal feelings over what the Watch Tower Society does or doesn't do aren't being discussed. As it happens, I don't believe the Organisation will become less hardline. The recent reemphasis over relationships with disfellowshipped family members (twice in 3 months?) suggests a certain hardline stance.

    I don't think I have seen those most recent comments. But what I have noticed over the years is that Witnesses have a tremendous capacity to interpret Watchtower pronouncements in any way they wish to suit themselves. I suspect many will continue to do that regardless of the nuances and changes of direction the Watchtower intends to impart.

    What has my "estimation of my choice" got to do with the obvious tightening of control on the Witnesses by The Governing Body? Did the fact that I disassociated from the high control environment of the Watch Tower Society mean that my opinions on how The Governing Body are operating wrong or irrelevant? If so, how does that work?

    No I am not saying that at all. But I think it has been observed often enough that when people are new out of the religion they tend imagine that massive changes are afoot. In time they come to realise that the organization tends to stumble along much as it ever did, and that while the point of departure was very important in their own lives, it did not coincide with dramatic changes for the organization.

    Could it be that you have an element of fear lingering over you, that because you're still ostensibly identified, via your baptism, as a Jehovah's Witness, the Society has some sort of control over your future? For example, if they did crack down on faders, it would impact on your life via family relationships?

    I wouldn't like it to happen to me personally but I can't honestly say the thought grips me with fear. As for how it might happen, I think its far more likely that a former Witness on this site would try to point me out me to the elders than that trouble would arise from any crackdown within the organization on faders.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    One thing to consider with these "liberalization" versus "hardline" JW trends in recent years is that probably now, as back in Ray Franz day - there are both liberal and hardline factions. Even on the governing body, service committee, and legal departments.

    One side may be getting their way on one issue, the other holds sway where they have more influence.

    The alternative service idea is just about the only example of "liberalization" that I can think of in the last two decades. Well, maybe the reduction in pioneer hours for April this year was too - but not a very important thing really.

    For sure, that July 15 watchtower was about as hardline as they could get on shunning, GB authority, and so on.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    One thing to consider with these "liberalization" versus "hardline" JW trends in recent years is that probably now, as back in Ray Franz day - there are both liberal and hardline factions. Even on the governing body, service committee, and legal departments.
    One side may be getting their way on one issue, the other holds sway where they have more influence.

    I am sure that is right. And I think it has been argued elsewhere with some merit that the legal department probably has a greater influence over policy than ever, and it tends to be in a liberal direction as their main concern is to get Jehovah's Witnesses accepted as a legitimate religious organization by the authorities.

    The alternative service idea is just about the only example of "liberalization" that I can think of in the last two decades. Well, maybe the reduction in pioneer hours for April this year was too - but not a very important thing really.

    Here are two more examples I can think of where there has been movement in a liberal direction. First the attitude toward mental illness and suicides. At one time seeking professional help for menal illness was a complete taboo whereas now it is more or less accepted. And at one time having a memorial service in the Kingdom Hall for someone who committed suicide was unheard of, whereas from the comments of others on this forum, and from local experience it is more common now to have a service conducted by an elder in the Kingdom Hall. The second is the sanction against unbaptised publishers who are removed for wrongdoing. At one time the organization instructed that unbaptised publishers who were removed were to be treated the same as disfellowshipped Witnesses. Now that ruling has been completely reversed so there is no sanction against unbaptised publishers who are removed.

  • james_woods
    james_woods
    At one time the organization instructed that unbaptised publishers who were removed were to be treated the same as disfellowshipped Witnesses. Now that ruling has been completely reversed so there is no sanction against unbaptised publishers who are removed.

    I did not know this - nor anything about the funerals for suicide victims.

    Your point about the Legal Department is an excellent and valid one, I think. Possibly someday the Legal Department may strive to make the blood issue entirely a matter of conscience (thus avoiding liability) - they are already part way there with all the confusion over "fractions".

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    This is an academic article from 10 years ago which argues that the legal deparment of Jehovah's Witnesses has become a key driver of reforms within the movement. Unfortunately I don't think the full text is online but you can read the abstract.

    http://www.jstor.org/pss/1388177

  • willyloman
    willyloman

    Back to the original point: There is no question in my mind that dub judicial matters are often handled in a kangaroo court fashion. I saw faders called to a JC after being inactive for many years, simply because a JW relative decided to make a federal case out of it.

    One example, from early 1976, concerned an elder who had been heavily promoting the WTS' October 1975 end-date. His daughter had quit high school in '74 in order to pioneer her way into the new system. Sometime in late '75, she began making frequent "return visits" on a college guy she met while going door-to-door. She was DF'd after she moved in with her new "Bible study."

    The father was furious about the action. He had a "fleshly" (sorry) brother who had stopped going to meetings in the late 1960s, who lived in another state. Apparently he had associated with our congregation many years back, however the congregation was in an area of rapid population growth and no one seemed to remember the guy. So when an elder announced that so-and-so was no longer one of JWs, those in the audience looked around in a collective "who dat?" moment.

    It turned out that elder of the DF'd daughter took the view, "Well, if she's DF'd, my brother deserves it even more" and he forced the issue on the other elders. It was one of those phone call deals where he was asked to come back to his hometown and face a JC and he just laughed them off. So, with the testimony of two witnesses - presumably the elder and his wife - he was DF'd in absentia. There's some irony in the fact that the elder and his wife became so disillusioned over the 1975 fiasco that they soon left the organization themselves.

    Sometimes there was simple procedural improprieties:

    One such case involved the fleshly brother (there's that phrase again) of an elder. I was a new elder in a small congo and there were only three of us. To my surprise, the third elder on the committee was the guy's brother! I questioned it but he said he could be impartial, and since it was my first JC I figured the other two knew the process better than I.

    The guy had a service business which meant he went to customers' homes to do some work. He confessed to banging one of his customers, a women he said was about 50 years of age who came on to him and wanted him to service her as well. This was a guy in his late 20s who was married to one of those virginal Barbie-doll sisters who was 19 or 20. It was difficult to imagine why'd he'd cheat. He was so matter of fact in his confession, I was stunned. The elder who was related to him asked him how he felt about it. He said he felt terrible and was sorry, and that he'd confessed to his wife and she had forgiven him. He swore it had never happened before. I asked him if he ever went back and provided another "service" to that customer. His response: "Only once." Meaning, one additional time.

    We asked him to move out of the room while we talked. I thought it was an open and shut case and he should be DF'd. I was over-ruled by the other two. His relative told us, "I know him and he doesn't express himself very well, but believe me, he's really torn up inside." The other elder said, "Since no one knows about it except his wife, this looks like private reproof to me." Case closed.

    I could go on all day. Many posters here have similar stories from their elder days.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    I was a very young pioneer and assistant congregation servant in a very small congregation in western Oklahoma. The CO was a special pioneer. For some reason, he had a real grudge case against some rural guy who was only a rare attendee at best - words in the past, I believe.

    Anyway, he was on the high horse to DF this guy. What he wanted to do was to get me on the committee, and cherry pick another committee member from a congregation about 50 miles away, and get-er-done.

    Well, I may have just been a young kid, but I could not see that the guy had actually committed any proven sin. The circuit overseer came by a month later (before anything got decided) and I told the CO my problem with this.

    CO writes the society, and they re-assigned the special pioneer couple and brought in another one, leaving me to wing it by myself for two months while the new couple got ther things together.

    I am still quite sure (despite my reservations) that this guy would have been DFd by hook or by crook if that CO had not acted immediately.

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