Atlas Shrugged Part 1

by littlerockguy 126 Replies latest social entertainment

  • Terry
    Terry

    I've been curious about the Libertarian/Randian philosophy wrt property rights. Does a person who inherits property holdings from his parent(s) have property rights to that land, Terry?

    You may as well use the phrase Catholic/Protestant for all its solidarity of viewpoint.

    Libertarians stole some of Rand's positions without taking with them the natural consequences of those positions morally. (I.e. consistent with reality.)

    Rand's view of property rights:

    Man has to work and produce in order to support his life. He has to support his life by his own effort and by the guidance of his own mind. If he cannot dispose of the product of his effort, he cannot dispose of his effort; if he cannot dispose of his effort, he cannot dispose of his life. Without property rights, no other rights can be practiced.

    Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal “What Is Capitalism?” Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal,

    Growing Up Buffett

    Don’t look for Susie, Howard and Peter Buffett’s names on the Forbes list of richest Americans any time soon. Sure, they’ve got more money than the average millionaire. After all, their dad is Warren Buffett. But he’s not drawing up a mega inheritance for them, like you might expect from the third-richest person in the world.

    You remember the headlines: Warren Buffett giving his billions to the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. So do you think the kids are bitter? Not even a little bit. And that’s a classic Buffett move by a guy who never let his kids get a big head growing up.

    Sidebar: Peter Buffett and I have been internet friends since 1995. I wasn't even until this year I knew his dad was Warren Buffett.

    Peter makes his own way. He earns his own money. He is a composer who worked on the PBS documentary about the FIVE NATIONS and DANCES with WOLVES and THE SCARLET LETTER motion pictures.

    Why do I mention this in the context of your question?

    The person who EARNS the money and property (wealth) has the right to do with it AS HE/SHE SO DESIRES.

    They can give to charity, let their children inherit, bury it in the backyard or burn it.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    I'm a great admirer of Warren Buffett for that and other reasons. Not exactly sure how to fit him/his children into this discussion though, as he is just one example; extreme both in his wealth and the coolness of his personal philosophy.

    What I'm curious about is how you (or Rand) view inherited wealth/property? Obviously I'm trying to suss out how you are using the phrase " The person who EARNS the money and property (wealth)...." , specifically the word "earns". A person who inherits money obviously didn't "earn" it; and that aside, we even have the term "unearned income" to designate a type of money that comes from investment rather than payment for work.

  • asleif_dufansdottir
    asleif_dufansdottir

    It is laughable the number of drive-by snipers who have no intellectual stake in a topic but who lob grenades into it.

    You don't understand why people see no point in 'continuing a discussion with you?

    Let's see...

    • you belong to a social group which prides itself on having the only right answer to a difficult situation and mocks and belittles those who don't have similar beliefs/understandings
    • this group's claims and beliefs may sound like 'common sense' to the average person at first but require extensive 'buy in' as you go deeper
    • the group thrives on 'attacks' by the 'enemy'
    • you wave around publications you say contain the 'truth' and the 'real answer' (tm)
    • outsiders who remain unconvinced have no patience in "discussing" a topic with most group members because the group member does not really engage in honest discussion but instead rattles off "the party line" while vigorously refusing to hear one word anyone who's not a group member says, and instead mocks them for blindness and stupidity...

    All this, and you honestly don't understand why people on THIS Board would have no patience or interest in prolonged 'discussion' with you. Really? The irony is deafening...

  • Terry
    Terry

    All this, and you honestly don't understand why people on THIS Board would have no patience or interest in prolonged 'discussion' with you. Really? The irony is deafening...

    Sounds like unconditional surrender to me.

    Okaaaaay.

  • Quentin
    Quentin

    marked

  • Terra Incognita
    Terra Incognita

    Terry:

    "Jared Diamond is a real hoot!

    In his book COLLAPSE he gives 12 reasons why Society's collapse.

    Take a look at Diamond's 12 reasons and tell me how many apply to the American Indian."

    First, my response. Then I’ll give my opinion of whom we’re dealing with here.

    Terry has absurdly conflated and confounded two very different subject matters from two very different books.

    The book I cited was Guns, Germs and Steel. It deals with the subject of why PRIMITIVE HUNTER GATHERERS did not advance technologically over other societies.

    Collapse , by the same author, explains why ADVANCED SOCIETIES often times collapsed. It made no reference to hunter gatherers.

    So Terry tried to confuse the issue at hand by bringing in a completely different and irrelevant subject about completely different types of societies.

    ***

    It is obvious that we’re dealing here with an ideologue who, like many other ideologues and members of our beloved former religion, simply cannot and do not even wish to understand anything outside of their mental framework.


    asleif_dufansdottir :

    .

    · you belong to a social group which prides itself on having the only right answer to a difficult situation and mocks and belittles those who don't have similar beliefs/understandings

    · this group's claims and beliefs may sound like 'common sense' to the average person at first but require extensive 'buy in' as you go deeper

    · the group thrives on 'attacks' by the 'enemy'

    · you wave around publications you say contain the 'truth' and the 'real answer' (tm)

    · outsiders who remain unconvinced have no patience in "discussing" a topic with most group members because the group member does not really engage in honest discussion but instead rattles off "the party line" while vigorously refusing to hear one word anyone who's not a group member says, and instead mocks them for blindness and stupidity...

    To which I'll add:

    • Name calls without reason. Post 10651.
    • Lacks the courage to answer the toughest question posed.

    · Appears to be using "cult language" which he does not define but gladly flings at us. Example, “ You, on the other hand, seem to have no opinions that you will own. Why is that?” Post 10653.

    · Does not admit to gross contradictions. Example; this comment of his, directed at me, about his mentor, " You are fatuous if you think I have any interest in defending the rantings of silly old woman who shot from the hip”. Yet he blissfully proceeds to praise her later. Post 10653.

    · Claims that Ayn Rand should be respected for her achievements for the same reason we should respect a child rapist for building a magnificent skyscraper. His exact statement from post 10639, “ If an architect is a child molester and builds a fantastic building why should we decry the architecture?” Yet mindlessly contradicts himself by mocking other authors because they’re involved in a lawsuit. Needless to say, Terry the ‘sniper’ does not even bother to address himself to the basics and merits of what that author said.

    · Claims that Ayn Rand should be respected for her achievements for the same reason we should respect a child rapist for building a magnificent skyscraper. His exact statement from post 10639, “ If an architect is a child molester and builds a fantastic building why should we decry the architecture?” Yet mindlessly contradicts himself by mocking other authors because they’re involved in a lawsuit. Needless to say, Terry the ‘sniper’ does not even bother to address himself to the basics and merits of what that author said.

    · Does not admit to gross contradictions. Example; this comment of his, directed at me, about his mentor, " You are fatuous if you think I have any interest in defending the rantings of silly old woman who shot from the hip”. Yet he blissfully proceeds to praise her later. Post 10653.

    · Claims that Ayn Rand should be respected for her achievements for the same reason we should respect a child rapist for building a magnificent skyscraper. His exact statement from post 10639, “ If an architect is a child molester and builds a fantastic building why should we decry the architecture?” Yet mindlessly contradicts himself by mocking other authors because they’re involved in a lawsuit. Needless to say, Terry the ‘sniper’ does not even bother to address himself to the basics and merits of what that author said.

    · Claims that Ayn Rand should be respected for her achievements for the same reason we should respect a child rapist for building a magnificent skyscraper. His exact statement from post 10639, “ If an architect is a child molester and builds a fantastic building why should we decry the architecture?” Yet mindlessly contradicts himself by mocking other authors because they’re involved in a lawsuit. Needless to say, Terry the ‘sniper’ does not even bother to address himself to the basics and merits of what that author said.

  • darthfader
    darthfader

    I have a question, At what point does my "self-interest" stop with regard to the public at large? Is my self-interest affected negatively when the public at large suffers? When there are groups of people who cannot provide for themselves, how does the rational long term thinker justify charity or "tax" or whatever mechanism is used to assist those who cannot help themselves?

    Also, it seems to me that in a pure sense, the use of rational long term self-interest breaks down with "normal people". Just how many persons in the past 4 years did not act in their own long term self-interest which nearly brought about collapse our economy? There were a lot of logical and rational thinkers behind the mortgage crisis who looked that the betterment of their short term gain and were blind to the wider consequence.

    Is the concept of rational long term self-interest even possible for enough people to make it a workable social/financial model?

    Can more regulation "save us from ourselves"? It education the key?

    These subjects are quite interesting for me as I have only begun to read and think about these issues (having been a brain-dead JW for most of my life).
    Cheers

  • Terry
    Terry

    Terry has absurdly conflated and confounded two very different subject matters from two very different books.

    The book I cited was Guns, Germs and Steel. It deals with the subject of why PRIMITIVE HUNTER GATHERERS did not advance technologically over other societies.

    Collapse, by the same author, explains why ADVANCED SOCIETIES often times collapsed. It made no reference to hunter gatherers.

    So Terry tried to confuse the issue at hand by bringing in a completely different and irrelevant subject about completely different types of societies.

    You are becoming hysterical for no reason.

    THE SAME AUTHOR wrote both books.

    Are you not aware that even in a court of law the words of a witness can be impeached by quoting OTHER WORDS by the same witness?

    Sure you are. You aren't stupid. But, slippery? Yes!

    INDIANS WERE HUNTER GATHERERS? Yes.

    Now how does it escape your notice that they had presumably thousands of years to turn the prairie into something GREATER than a place to graze and gather??

    Why do I say this? Because it was the WHOLE POINT of Ayn Rand's criticism!

    The tribes of Europeans who appeared on the shores of the east coast of the Americas were out numbered by the Indians.

    They were in a DO or DIE situation. They were fleeing from oppression both religious and political.

    If they could not carve out a place for themselves using their own wits, skill and intelligence they WOULD DIE.

    Many did.

    The success of the Europeaan tribesmen (inaccurately termed "The White Man") was a Darwinian contest of the FITTEST.

    In any contest (or game) the BEST SKILLED wins.

    Rand correctly pointed this out.

    She used coarse language and shot from the hip.

    She was never politically correct.

    But, her facts were straight.

    Indians saw only Prairie and bison.

    Europeans saw (and transformed what they saw) a vast wealth for a united civilization.

    Would you care to say: WE WOULD ALL BE BETTER OFF TODAY IF THE INDIANS HAD WON. ???

    Now you don't have to agree with Rand. But, labeling her (and me!) as RACIST is hysterical nonsense and bad manners.

    Grow up and learn to express yourself more accurately without setting fire to the furniture!

  • Terry
    Terry

    Claims that Ayn Rand should be respected for her achievements for the same reason we should respect a child rapist for building a magnificent skyscraper. His exact statement from post 10639, “ If an architect is a child molester and builds a fantastic building why should we decry the architecture?” Yet mindlessly contradicts himself by mocking other authors because they’re involved in a lawsuit

    Another silly, unfocused, nonsensical braying without the least understanding!

    A horrible miscreant can produce beautiful buildings and music. The Building will not suffer in the least. The music will remain beautiful

    But, an author who dishonestly misrepresents facts contaminates the work itself.

    If you cannot see the difference you have no business exposing yourself to ridicule by braying in public.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Does not admit to gross contradictions. Example; this comment of his, directed at me, about his mentor, " You are fatuous if you think I have any interest in defending the rantings of silly old woman who shot from the hip”. Yet he blissfully proceeds to praise her later. Post 10653.

    You really have a talent for wasting other people's time answering you! And you wonder why

    I have no interest defending Rand by jousting back and forth forever?

    Rand represents her philosophy as rational and objective.

    When You or others misquote or mischaracterize her (for your own agenda) you deliberately create a false impression.

    I can sit here and let it pass. After all, it always leads to time-wasting Ad Hominem assaults by intellectually dishonest folk who like attack the creator rather than the thing created.

    So, I face the choice: let it pass or set the record straight without getting sucked in.

    We see where that led, don't we?

    I don't like Ayn Rand the person. I think in many ways her personality and life were disgusting.

    But, I don't throw out her philosophy like a baby in the bathwater.

    You can't and won't understand the difference.

    That is the privilege of indifference.

    I notice you NEVER ONCE address any of her philosophical points (the real meat of philosophy) with

    reasoned rebuttal.

    Noooooo...you'd rather pitch a prissy hissy fit and attack me.

    Go look in the mirror. Go on....be brave....

    You see that person? That is your worst enemy.

    Not me.

    Get it?

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