The condition of the dead

by jgnat 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    A self-proclaimed knowledge of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is the condition of the dead, knowledge that somehow the rest of the world has missed. Their claim to this knowledge comes from a unique interpretation of the bible. To even entertain this belief, the reader must also trust the bible as a reliable source of information.

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses reinforce this “knowledge” of death and resurrection with attractive images of the paradise to come.

    paradise earth

    How could a sceptic, or even a bible scholar, have any hope of debating this with a Witness? For the sceptic, there is no way to test the theory. The sceptic leaves any possible afterlife must remain firmly in the realm of faith. For the bible scholar, “knowledge” comes down to testing the relative merits of bible interpretation, what I call “hurling scriptures at each other”; as useless as counting the angels on the head of a pin.

    The Jehovah’s Witness view, from “Insight to the Scriptures”

    The dead are … “conscious of nothing at all” and the death state to be one of complete inactivity. (Eccl. 9:5, 10; Ps. 146:4) In both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures death is likened to sleep… (Ps. 13:3; John 11:11-14) The resurrected Jesus is spoken of as “the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep in death.” (1 Cor. 15:20, 21)…Thus, those dying go into the “dust of death” (Ps. 22:15), becoming “impotent in death.” (Prov. 2:18; Isa. 26:14) (The rest of the article quotes The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible and Professor Edmond Jacob to dismiss scriptures that speak of the soul and separation of soul from the body as figures of speech.)

    Here are some other contemporary views of the afterlife.

    Jewish Beliefs on the Afterlife

    But Judaism is much more focused on actions than beliefs, so it is actually to be expected that its prophets and sages have not spent as much time on speculations about the world to come as elaborations on the mitzvot to be performed in this life. The Torah and Talmud alike focus on the purpose of earthly life, which is to fulfill one's duties to God and one's fellow man.

    The Sadducees, from Wikipedia

    According to Josephus, the Sadducees believed that … the soul is not immortal; there is no afterlife, and there are no rewards or penalties after death[.] The Sadducees rejected the belief in resurrection, which was a central tenet of the growing Jesus movement. This often provoked hostility between the two groups…

    The Pharisees, from Wikiepdia

    According to Josephus, Pharisees were further distinguished from the Sadducees in that Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead. It is likely that Josephus highlighted these differences because he was writing for a Gentile audience, and questions concerning fate and a life after death were important in Hellenic philosophy. In fact, it is difficult, or impossible, to reconstruct a Second Temple Pharisaic theology, because Judaism itself is non-creedal; that is, there is no dogma or set of orthodox beliefs that Jews believed were required of Jews. … The Pharisees believed in a literal resurrection of the body.

    Mesopotamians

    …Endiku is sick and near death as he recounts this dream in which he is greeted by a hideous monster with large claws that transports him to the Queen of Darkness to the “house from which none who enters ever returns…” He sees people with dark gray faces, starving for food and looking hopeless. On this same day after he awakens from this dream, Enkidu dies, and Gilgamesh is so consumed with grief…

    Greek

    This Greek view of life after death is not a horrific vision as in Enkidu’s dream, yet Argives tells Ulysses, “’Say not a word’…’in death’s favour; I would rather be a paid servant in a poor man’s house and be above ground than king of kings among the dead.’” Therefore, Argives indicates being dead is not as envious as being alive. The Greek afterlife appears to be a place of neutrality, filled with neither sorrow, nor happiness; just an empty void where souls journey after their physical bodies have expired.

    Roman

    “Your so-called life [on earth] is really death…Unless that God whose temple is the whole visible universe releases you from the prison of the body, you cannot gain entrance here.” Clearly, the Romans viewed life on earth as a Hellish existence and in death a Heavenly afterlife exists for all those deserving.

    Orthodox Christianity

    Most Christians understand the soul as an ontological reality distinct from, yet integrally connected with, the body. Its characteristics are described in moral, spiritual, and philosophical terms. When people die, their souls will be judged by God and determined to spend an eternity in heaven or in hell.

    Islam

    Until the Day of Judgment, deceased souls remain in their graves awaiting the resurrection. However, they begin to feel immediately a taste of their destiny to come. Those bound for hell will suffer in their graves, while those bound for heaven will be in peace until that time.

    The resurrection that will take place on the Last Day is physical, and is explained by suggesting that God will re-create the decayed body (17:100: "Could they not see that God who created the heavens and the earth is able to create the like of them"?).

    On the Last Day, resurrected humans and jinn will be judged by Allah according to their deeds. One's eternal destination depends on balance of good to bad deeds in life. They are either granted admission to Paradise, where they will enjoy spiritual and physical pleasures forever, or condemned to Hell to suffer spiritual and physical torment for eternity.

    See also: Beliefs on the soul

    Conclusion

    I conclude that the Jehovah’s Witnesses sell their version of the afterlife as a unique brand; attractive and colourful, closely aligned with the Pharisee and Islamic view. The “knowledge” is made-up, but attractive even so. I would not even attempt to dissuade a Witness otherwise. Also note that not all religions demand doctrinal orthodoxy, choosing rather to focus on our duties here on earth.

  • dgp
    dgp

    Probably people do not question such beliefs because most of us want to think that there's something beautiful awaiting us after we die. Or, because most of us are religious and do not question the afterlife; we just question what happens after it, and the witnesses tell us something that doesn't seem too bad or too different from what we already believe.

    On another thread (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/208322/1/Is-this-not-an-easy-question), DJEggnog claims that Jehovah's witnesses believe what the Governing Body says and it would require objective evidence to make them change their opinion. Well, what is the objective evidence of life after death? It's interesting that those who claim to be able to communicate with the dead are usually thought of as being "in the dark side" themselves: voodoo, black magic, ouija boards, mediums. Christians do not believe in reincarnation. So, where do they find the proof of this statements?

    The burden of proof should be theirs, I believe.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I know this is not an easy thread to comment on. It's more a little study for my own benefit, rather than an invitation for discussion. I've followed the "easy question" thread and it has been interesting watching Dgeggnog tie himself in knots. I"ve seen the WTBTS change tack many times; rarely has it been for "objective evidence".

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    jgnat,

    Thats for posting this. The two jw's who came to my door today told me they had no plans on going to heaven and that was fine by them. Instead they looked forward to spending eternity on paradise earth. You are correct, the WT has its own brand of christianity and they sell it well. Peace, Lilly

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    A New Hope ... all because Rutherford had a math problem. I've twisted my JW husband in knots when I compared the relative expansiveness of the heavens, compared to the earth.

  • agonus
    agonus

    I'll let you know what happens as soon as I'm dead. That is, if I get the chance. ;)

    Seriously though, I suspect that the afterlife is likely similar to what we refer to as "dreaming". I also suspect that it is likely nothing that warrants a great deal of trepidation.

    I base this suspicion on intuition rather than evidence. Take it for what you will.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    While I was having my morning deep think in the shower, I thought of a way I would approach a Jehovah's Witness on the condition of the dead. For all their confidence on what happens and the wonderful images they convey, most Witnesses are very uncertain if they merit the reward. They are also very certain that I do not.

    I talk about Jehovah God's grace his mercy (unmerited favor), his deep knowledge of who we really are. Why wouldn't a just and loving God open up paradise to them? I'll also point out obviously good and kind people in the community - not Jehovah's Witnesses - and ask how a just and loving God could possibly condemn them? If we can see they are good people, can not also Jehovah?

    What I try and do is break the yoke of condemnation around their knecks. It is one of those terrible holds on the Witnesses that keeps them working, working without thinking (or hoping) very much. Give them a breather, a reason to believe in a just and loving God, and they may just start hoping and believing on their own.

  • dgp
    dgp

    They would have to be where they would do the right thing whether that gets them life everlasting, or not.

    Once you take that step, like I did, you're on your way out.

    I have always liked this old Spanish poem. It's one of the things I keep from my life as a Catholic. I wlll copy the Spanish original first, and then some translations. None gets it quite right.

    No me mueve, mi Dios, para quererte,
    el cielo que me tienes prometido,
    ni me mueve el infierno tan temido
    para dejar por eso de ofenderte.

    ¡Tú me mueves, Señor! muéveme el verte
    clavado en una cruz y escarnecido,
    muéveme el ver tu cuerpo tan herido,
    muévenme tus afrentas y tu muerte.

    Muéveme en fin tu amor, y en tal manera,
    que aunque no hubiera cielo yo te amara
    y aunque no hubiera infierno te temiera.

    No me tienes que dar, mi Dios, porque te quiera,
    pues aunque lo que espero no esperara
    lo mismo que te quiero te quisiera.

    (Translations taken from http://users.ipfw.edu/jehle/poesia/ACRISTEN.HTM)

    I am not moved to love Thee, 0 my Lord,
    By any longing for Thy Promised Land;
    Nor by the fear of hell am I unmanned
    To cease from my transgressing deed or word.

    Tis Thou Thyself dost move me,—Thy blood poured
    Upon the cross from nailed foot and hand;
    And all the wounds that did Thy body brand;
    And all Thy shame and bitter death's award.

    Yea, to Thy heart am I so deeply stirred
    That I would love Thee were no heaven on high,—
    That I would fear, were hell a tale absurd!

    Such my desire, all questioning grows vain;

    Though hope deny me hope I still should sigh,
    And as ray love is now, it should remain.


    —Thomas Walsh (translator)

    My God, it does not move me to befriend Thee
    that Thou hast promised heavenly salvation,
    and terror of eternal condemnation
    is not what moves my ceasing to offend Thee.

    To see Thee moves me, Lord, as nails suspend Thee
    upon the Cross, in great humiliation;
    Thy wounded body shows Thy tribulation
    as we to cruel disgrace and death do send Thee!

    Thy love so moves me naught to prize above Thee
    that were there not a Hell I yet would fear Thee
    and were there not a Heaven I would love Thee.

    Thou needst not give me more to have me love Thee,
    for, had I not such hope of being near Thee,
    I yet would love Thee just as now I love Thee.


    —Translation by Art Eschenlauer, Easter 1996


    To Christ Crucified


    Heaven that you have promised me, my God,
    Does not move me to love you.
    Nor does hell so dreadful move me
    To leave all that offends you.

    You move me, Lord. It moves me to see you
    Mocked, nailed to that cross.
    It moves me to see your body so wounded.
    Your dishonour moves me, and your death.

    You move me to your love in such a way
    That —even if there were no heaven— I would love you;
    And —even if there were no hell— I would fear you.

    You do not have to give to gain my love;
    For —even if what I hope for becomes hopeless—
    In the same way I love you, I would love you still.


    Translated by Stacy Shoop, 1996


    Sonnet to Christ Crucified

    I am not moved to love you, Lord,
    By promises of paradise;
    Nor does the hell that terrifies
    Move me to want to sin no more.

    You are the one that moves me, Lord,
    When to your cross I turn my eyes
    To see your wounds, hear insults, lies;
    I'm grieved to know you're dying, Lord.

    Your love moves me in such a way
    That without heav'n I'd love you still,
    And without hell, I'd fear to stray.

    I need no goads or giveaway;
    For even if my hopes were nil,
    I'd love you as I do today.


    Hymn to Christ Crucified

    I am not moved to love you, God,
    By hope for heav'n's reward;
    Nor am I moved by fear of hell
    To turn from sin, my Lord.
    What moves me, God, is seeing you,
    Despised and nailed up high
    Upon that cross with gaping wounds,
    Rejected, left to die.
    Your love so moves me, Lord, that if
    There were no heav'n or hell,
    I still would fear your holy name
    And truly love you well.
    And so I need no promises
    To sway my love for you;
    For even if I had no hope,
    I'd love you as I do.

    Translated by Hugh Seay, Lent, 1978

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Great insight, dgp.

    It took me a while, as a regular Christian, to understand the way that Witnesses see hope. Very early in my posting here on JWD, a Witness apologist challenged all of us who had "no hope". My freedom comes from no longer being bound by chains of sin. Whatever happens afterward, I have the opportunity to grow in love, in kindness, in charity every day. I put my life in God's hands, not worrying about the future.

    A Witness, on the other hand, while having a vivid image of what is offered to them, remains uncertain if they are ever deserving. Great observation, dgp, on the consequences of deciding to do the right thing. For instance, loving an estranged child even if they no longer attend services.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    IMHO:

    We die, we die, our bodies die, they (the bodies) suffer curruption (decomposition), the "living soul" that we are, dies at death.

    Our spirit that is immortal, returns to God, its source, to await the Bodily ressurection to come.

    We are conscious in our spirit, our spirit is all that we are, our memories, everything.

    At the appointed time our bodies wil be ressurected, become "living souls" once more when our spirt returns to it and THAT body, in perfect union with our spirit, free of sin and final judgment, will be incorruptible.

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