An argument against atheism: It's hopeless

by simon17 20 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JuanMiguel
    JuanMiguel

    I beg to differ. Some atheists so indeed believe in things that are unprovable and untestable.

    For instance, it is not impossible for something or someone to exist that we are unaware of or do not have the means to test. Being a stereographer by profession, I must often work with very complex formulas to manipulate light and the illusion of depth for digital motion picture projection. The theory of relativity--something I thought would never be a daily variable in my work--strangely enough comes into play for me daily.

    Because of a phenomenon created by the way light travels and stops due to polarization, an image which in reality has one series of dimensions in real life will be seen with the same dimensions invert during playback. Such a problem was once thought impossible according to science, but was discovered during the processing of one of the first digital 3D films called Meet the Robinsons.

    To make a long story short, artists were baffled when they disovered that an image on a table that was logistically unimportant to a scene suddenly became inverted as a characted walked and stood behind it. Once the character moved again, the inverted effect stopped.

    There was no explanation for this for a while. We scrambled to find an explanation while the artists at Disney reconstructed the scene entirely. During the processing of several later films, the effect came about again. Scenes had to be reblocked and reshot to avoid a phenomenon that, scientifically speaking had no explanation and was thus impossible, even though we could now witness it and even explain and partially predict it.

    Except for me and one other person, a group of stereographers who studied the process to "redefine" the science behind the problem assembled that was composed of atheists. For one year we could do nothing but demonstrate and off-and-on predict the inversion effect which violated the laws of light. What we were witnessing was completely impossible. When the head of the study tried to get help from several universities, we were astonished when our findings were called "hogwash," even being told that "it would be easier to prove the existence of unicorns or God" by one professor.

    Eventually a connection was found between the inversion "illusion" and the theory of relativity. We totally understand the process, what causes it, and how to prevent it from happening. But the whole scientific explanation opens a can of worms for it suggests that reality is not absolute but relative. Our perseption of reality is not always what it seems, and even objective physical evidence can, under the right circumstance, fool the senses into believing that what is, well to put it bluntly, just isn't.

    This means that our perception of what is real is always subject to being false. The belief of one or even a million people based on scientific evidence can be proven false because reality is subject to its own objectivity of being relative. Light, time, and gravity can change everything you now accept with the simple change of a minute variable.

    In other words, it can now be proven that reality itself is subject to change and is not the objective means of measuring what is and what isn't.

    In light of this, an atheist can indeed believe in things that are not true. In fact, once we discovered the way to explain the inversion problem, we laughed at ourselves. Why?

    Because the depth we witness via the new 3D process is both illusion and reality. We know this as fact. It is witnessing an illusion that is reality. Depth is real even though though in 3D projection this reality is subjective. The answer we were searching for is based on the same principle. We had to stop thinking of illusions as "unreal". Once we did that, we solved the problem.

    And each time you go to see one of these movies in 3D, I guarantee you, you are witnessing reality that does and does not exist at the same time. It is more than illusion and it is only illusion at the same time. And it happens regardless if you believe in 3D or not.

    So you can't argue that atheists don't believe in the unprovable and untestable. Too much exists that falls under that catagory. If you don't believe me, study the debte over relative vs. absolute reality.

  • J. Hofer
    J. Hofer

    having several people being able to recreate a phenomenon is sufficient provability and testability...

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    This is one of the nice things about being "JIOR" Group ("Jehovah Is Our Righteousness"). Especially since 1950 when the "sign of the son of man" began to appear following the estalishment of the State of Israel in 1948, we have direct proof of the God of the Bible. Plus the corrected chronology that shows Christ returned in 1992 gives us a better perspective as to where we are in the stream of the Biblical timeline.

    Case in point, correctly undertanding that the four beasts of Daniel represent three political world powers and Babylon the Great. When the 4th beast is destroyed, which is when the UN destroys the Federal Reserve, then the three other beasts give up their political sovereignty to the U.N. This is already seen happening right now with the conflict in Libya where the U.N. mobilized quickly to address this situation. The US is financially strapped now and so is forming more coalitions with the other member nations of the U.N.

    So we are not just waiting and guessing hoping that Armageddon will confirm Bible prophecy. We have already had the confirmation that Bible prophecy and chronology is being fulfilled. So while atheism at this point, for the world in general are still skeptical, those of the elect who are sealed into the kingdom at this time have our direct proof of god at varius levels, whether through observed action by holy spirit, or seeing the "sign of the son of man" (a literal, physical phenomenon that appears to the elect and that has been photographed), or more direct interaction with Jehovah himself.

    Athenism will be proven a false presumption once Armageddon starts, of course.

    The God of the Bible is real and some of us have direct, personal proof.

    But particularly in the case of atheism is the reference in the Bible that he that has much will be given more but he that has nothing will have that taken away. What is less than nothing? -1 is less than nothing. So in application, those with all the faith and who believe, get to see the direct action of holy spirit, or meet John or Paul who are still alive from the 1st Century, or get to see the "sign of the son of man" that appears to the elect. Thus they no longer need "faith" because they have direct proof the Bible is true. But atheists, who deny God in the first place will go from that position of having nothing to having less than that, meaning their doubts about God will decrease and they will be more convinced than ever as time goes by there must not be a god, as this poster is demonstrating. That is, they will find and focus on more things that convince their belief there is no god, thus their belief in God that used to be zero, now moves into the negative range of -1 or -5, etc.

    So what God is doing is pulling in the last of those who could be saved, but pushing away those who are to be killed. There is a clear separation now between the two. There will be no more fence sitters, Jehovah is pushing everyone away from the middle, either closer to him or farther away. A clear distinction between the righteous and the wicked is now being seen.

  • trevor
    trevor

    Unable to understand the world they lived in, ancient man invented the concept of 'gods'. This became known as theism. Our modern world has moved on and largely rejects the idea of a personal god or gods. This does not mean we have all the answers, just that whatever intelligence or un-manifest potential the universe contains, it has to be explained in a more rational and feasible manner.

    Atheists have dismissed the idea of a personal god but many keep an open mind about matters that we have insufficient knowledge of, at present. Our individual human lives can seem a little hopeless and may seem pointless but we are part of something much bigger. Not so much a plan as an unfolding event spanning billions of years, possibly eternity.

    As JuanMiguel explained in his excellent posts - We have to think outside the box. Unfortunately belief in a personal god has become a box.

  • Curtains
    Curtains

    JuanMiguel - excellent points in post 92

    Regarding post 91 - I agree that name calling is unnecessary and insulting so it is important to consider how we disagree when we want argue our points. Apart from that, I have sometimes found myself agreeing with those who find themselves approaching the edge of the sentiments expressed below. I can also be very blunt when I want to attack an argument. To clarify - where do you stand regarding people being blunt on here when they want to disagree with an argument?

    Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 (New International Version, ©2011)

    Ecclesiastes 3
    A Time for Everything

    1 There is a time for everything,
    and a season for every activity under the heavens:

    2 a time to be born and a time to die,
    a time to plant and a time to uproot,
    3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
    a time to tear down and a time to build,
    4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
    a time to mourn and a time to dance,
    5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
    a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
    6 a time to search and a time to give up,
    a time to keep and a time to throw away,
    7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
    a time to be silent and a time to speak,
    8 a time to love and a time to hate,
    a time for war and a time for peace.

  • NomadSoul
    NomadSoul

    Eventually a connection was found between the inversion "illusion" and the theory of relativity. We totally understand the process, what causes it, and how to prevent it from happening. But the whole scientific explanation opens a can of worms for it suggests that reality is not absolute but relative. Our perseption of reality is not always what it seems, and even objective physical evidence can, under the right circumstance, fool the senses into believing that what is, well to put it bluntly, just isn't.

    You mean like..........AN OPTICAL ILLUSION!

    JuanMiguel, would you mind sharing and explaining this process. You say you TOTALLY understand it, so you wouldn't mind writing a thesis on it. I'll wait.....

  • Terry
    Terry

    We have to be careful to not use our ignorance as proof.

    We only know what we know when it has been supported by evidence.

    We can claim "special" knowledge (revelation) by supernatural sources. But, it isn't proof of anything either.

    I've had conversations with people where I work about some really peculiar things they are very open to.

    They will say to me, "Anything is possible!"

    And I reply, "Actually, no. Otherwise, there would be no need for a word such as "impossible."

    Here is what I think happens.

    A wild and crazy idea is injected into public imagination such as Alien Abuductions, Bigfoot, Chariots of the Gods, etc.

    A segment of the population then wants ironclad response from the scientific community that it is IMPOSSIBLE.

    They want a negative to be proved.

    Scientists and skeptics give a list of reasons why these things are unlikely and the debunking is boring.

    BORING can never match EXCITING.

    A wild claim is far more interesting than a boring list of reasons why that claim isn't true.

    Jesus is a superhero. That's a wild claim.

    The End of the World is coming. That's a wild claim.

    No boring list of refutations based on rational chains of well-reasoned argument can hope to match the excitement!

    But, we can't use our Ignorance of things in the past as a door to the acceptance of extraordinary claims without evidence.

  • bohm
    bohm

    juan, i have a working grasp on special and general relativity and has taken courses in classical and quantum optics, perhaps you could share some details?

    For one year we could do nothing but demonstrate and off-and-on predict the inversion effect which violated the laws of light.

    which law?

    What we were witnessing was completely impossible.

    well..

    When the head of the study tried to get help from several universities, we were astonished when our findings were called "hogwash," even being told that "it would be easier to prove the existence of unicorns or God" by one professor.

    what exactly was your hypothesis and was it demonstrated to be true?

    This means that our perception of what is real is always subject to being false.

    The belief of one or even a million people based on scientific evidence can be proven false because reality is subject to its own objectivity of being relative.

    is the principle of relativity being called into question?

    So you can't argue that atheists don't believe in the unprovable and untestable.

    well atheists are just as frequently wrong as everyone else... and it sound like what you discovered was both proovable and testable?

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    Even if it were a undeniably hopeless it's no reason to ignore truth. If it truly is hopeless than we need to change it to hopeful because no one else is going to do it if we don't.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Our perseption of reality is not always what it seems

    Juan, I would like to buy you a drink. Excellent post!

    -Sab

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