So if you see me or someone else exposing the flawed logic, inconsistencies, and irrationality of another's beliefs in a public forum, please don't mistake it for a personal attack. (Not that you do...)
You're right, I don't, dear one (again, peace to you!). I understand sarcasm when it's meant to expose flawed logic, etc. You know, your sundry "Doh!" moments. That isn't what I'm speaking of, though. I am speaking of the JW tendency to call people "goats" simply because they don't agree or wish to hear their message. That same practice is frequently displayed here by those who claim to have left or never had much to personally do with the WTBTS. There is no difference, although such ones believe, in their "dark" minds, that there is. You don't agree? Don't agree. Even attack the logic, inconsistencies, irrationalities, etc. But why resort to personally attacking the person? It is because you (not you, dear one, but those who engage in such attacks) cannot handle someone not accepting your view. That... is irrational... and hypocritical, which, IMHO, is even worse.
Many of us nontheists will fight for your freedom to believe
Hmmmmm... although I admit there are a few here, and they do so "fight"... I can't say I see "many", sorry. To be fair, I see the same lack among a lot of the so-called "christians" as well. Those don't tend to stay long, though...
but if you post incredulous and unsubstantiated views as fact, don't be surprised if your assertions get shot down.
This is an interesting statement. What I see, at least in my case and a few others... is (1) people... and not assertions... being shot down, and (2) when unsubstantiated "facts" presented by non-theists are shot down, a cry going up to the extent that "Well, yeah, what I asserted doesn't PROVE it but any fool can see that that's what it is, or must be, or will be." Never an, "You know, okay, right now the fact isn't proven, so I won't use that one any more until it is." Nope, never. In some instances, the "fact" is literally disproven. Yet, no concession... by theists OR nontheists. Two very good examples of that are the names "Jehovah" and "Jesus." Folks don't CARE about the facts; they only care about tradition... and/or custom. Even if both are lies.
Ah, so you say he died for me, making a sacrifice, and I should be grateful.
Yes... yes... and nope, you didn't see/hear me say that. I am grateful. I cannot tell you what YOU should be. Telling someone that they SHOULD be grateful is... irrelevant. It has to come from them. THEY must see a reason for being grateful, something no one else can tell or make them do.
Yet he only gave up a relatively sh**ty precursor of life to enjoy the REALLIFE up in heaven.
Ummmmm... isn't that subjective? What makes you think he thought his life relatively sh**ty? He had a trade, no one to care for but a mother, few cares/worries... and was able to do miraculous things. Where is the sh**ty in that, pray tell?
So where's the sacrifice?
It is in two places: first, that his life wasn't sh**ty, at all. Even if we count how he was ridiculed and persecuted by others. That didn't occur until he was 27 years old, so he had a great life until then. Second, when he did give it, it wasn't only for his family and friends - loved ones. It was also for his enemies. It is hard enough for us to do it for a loved one, but we will. Readily, happily. Doing it for ones who hate you... no so easy, dear one.
What did he give up if this life isn't the "real LIFE" as you said?
He gave up this "life," which although pretty good for him, he knew wasn't real, was only temporary. Thing is, the flesh (with its blood) belongs to this life, this temporary existence. And wants to live NOW. So, it wasn't like his body was, like, "Heck, yeah, let's go... let's get them nails in and get on up on that pole, 'cause the GOOD life lies ahead!" No, his flesh was just like ours and would have protested through the entire ordeal. Yet, he was able to conquer his flesh... and bring it under submission so that it didn't thwart his purpose... by the strength of his spirit!
And if you count his entire life on earth as a sacrifice, what does that amount to when you put it in the context of eternity? Infinity minus three decades.
It isn't about the measurement of his life in years, dear one. It's about that fact that he didn't HAVE to do it... but CHOSE to do it. Out of love. Whether you and others can appreciate that, even have some measure of gratitude is a very personal matter and one only you can contemplate.
He was supposedly on earth for 33 years, and 90% of his time on earth was so unremarkable as to not be recorded. Then the Bible portrays him as suffering only in the latter part of the last year of his life, right?
Right. But doesn't it also say that if all of the things he did WERE recorded, all of the books in the world couldn't contain them? So, that only a fraction of what he did was recorded means what? What WAS recorded should be remarkable enough; I mean, given that no one else has come close, at least not someone who actually lived.
He endures an agonizing death, but knowing he's about to be king'd again in the "real life" and live for eternity. Good for him.
I am not sure where everyone gets that he endured an "agonizing" death... anymore than, say, others who were likewise impaled. Or who died by other methods. For example, his bones weren't broken like the two who were impaled with him. I imagine they must have endured even more agony. The point is not that his death was agonizing or painful - the POINT is that he was put to death in the manner of a cursed man... when he had not only not committed sin commensurate with the punishment but had committed NO sin. Ever. Of any kind. THAT is the "crime" and injustice of his death.
He didn't HAVE to give his life. He could have fought to live... hired a lawyer to present a defense. But he DIDN'T. He went willingly. NOT for HIS sins... but for OURS. He was impaled for US... those of us who recognize that we are sinners and by means of TRUE justice, should have to pay for our sins against others. He gave his life, however... his sinLESS life... through (1) taking OUR sins (or fleshly corruption) into HIS flesh (which became sinFUL), and (2) taking those sins... along with the sins we commit with out SPIRIT... to the grave... and leaving them there, coming back CLEANSED and able to present that cleansing on our behalf, those of us who put and exercise faith in him.
I appreciate and am grateful that he did this for ME... and especially for my household. Whether YOU can appreciate it is, again, something for YOU to contemplate, alone.
My wife went through a long labor and deliver without an epidural or any pain medication (for our first child). And she's imperfect. Jesus ain't got nothin' on her.
LOLOLOLOLOL! I did, too, with my second. Again, how the body can protest pain! But it was over MUCH faster... and I felt MUCH better... than the first one, where I was given a buttload of drugs. Be that as it may, your wife... and I... did it for love. Love of someone/something belonging to us. But not love for an enemy. My Lord did it even for his enemies, though, dear one. Which makes HIS love greater. Do you see?
Try what? And what's the reason.
To hear... and perhaps even see. So that what I share can BE substantiated... with you. Even is no one else hears, sees, believes, YOU will know. Know what I mean?
I wouldn't call it fear... but an awareness; an awareness of how easily we can deceive ourselves into believing our own wishful thinking. Bias is a conniving mistress.
I totally agree; however, that is not always the case and unless one is willing to entertain... and investigate, if they can... ALL propositions, how can one be sure?
But, yes, that's critical thinking alright.
Does critical thinking... TRUE critical thinking... say, "Well, this one says it's possible to do such-and-so, but I don't believe them, so I won't even entertain the possibility, let alone try"?
If someone wants to convince me that their god is real and that it interacts with them, the onus is on that person to provide some evidence or logic for me to even START investigating their claims. So far, that hasn't happened.
I cannot agree. I and others here have provided all kinds of logic and invitations to obtain evidence. Since the latter doesn't manifest in a way that can be measured PHYSICALLY, however, it is unequivocally rejected. There isn't even an effort to entertain that perhaps not all that exists is physical. Rather, the position is that if it ain't physical... it ain't. Which is a mistake as there IS more. Much more. And it is dismissing this truth that presents the real limitations to critical thinking. Because other possibilities are totally ignored.
Unfortunately, some people don't demand evidence, nor do they rely on logic, before believing.
Some. But that can't be true of a true christian. For one, as I have often stated here, just calling oneself a "christian" does not make it so. True, one can be a DISCIPLE, but not all of Christs disciples became christians. However, for one who IS a christian, there INDEED is evidence: the outpouring and receipt of holy spirit, the ANOINTING with the oil of exultation! That IS the evidence of one having been CHOSEN to be a member of the Body of Christ and a "virgin" in the "train" of his Bride. AND... such anointing is accompanied by one... or more... GIFTS... to further evidence that choosing! If, then, one hasn't received that EVIDENCE... one is NOT a christian. Again, one is yet only a disciple. BUT... that does not make the one chosen BETTER than a disciple... or anyone else. We are chosen to be SERVANTS in this life, not kings, priests, leaders, etc. THAT is for the NEXT life, the real life. Because the Most Holy One of Israel is a God of SERVICE. And so those in His household must first learn to be servants. That is the "subduing" being done by the One He installed as His King, Christ. And it is for the purpose of such service that ones receive the gifts of holy spirit.
That just opens them up to accept all sorts of dubious claims, doesn' it?
It DOES! Which is why there not only should be some evidence... but evidence that one can explain AND... demonstrate. For me, the evidence is what I share here. As I have said MANY times before, it is NOT mine, I don't know this stuff! It is what I RECEIVE... by means of that holy spirit that I was given. And I have no qualms stating who I received it from... because to NOT do so, to pretend like I know these things on my own... would be lying. Utterly lying and an attempt to deceive the dear folks here.
There's a sucker born every minute. I prefer to reserve belief until given ample reason and evidence to pursue it further.
There is and, of course, no one wants to be a sucker, right? However, the basis for your reservation might be flawed. It's like saying, "I prefer to reserve belief that the earth is round until given ample reason and evidence to pursue it further... and the ONLY thing that I will accept as reason and evidence is a photo from outer space." At a time when space travel hasn't yet been implemented.
I get it that the "evidence" you have been subjected to thus far has been severely lacking; however, wouldn't it be better to say, "Unless you've got something different than what's come before I won't waste my time. But if what you've got is indeed different... and I won't know until I hear it... well, then, it remains to be seen. So, let's have it - what you got?" And THEN make your decision? Isn't THAT what true critical thinking is about?
Right now, the overwhelmingly ridiculous description of the Bible god(s) and/or your god, prevents me from 'trying it'.
I get the "ridiculous" description of the Bible god, at least as man explains Him. May I ask, in what way do you find my God ridiculous? And please note, my God is not the Bible god, at least not to any great extent. So, can you elaborate, please? Note, I don't really expect that you will, as it is rare for anyone to do so in this regard. Rather, the usual is "No, I don't want/need to because I just feel it is" or something like that. But I wish to give you the benefit of the doubt, that you can articulate what you mean... and at least help me understand why you feel as you do with regard to MY God. Because I think you've mistakenly lumped me in with followers of the Bible god.
That is not a prejudgment. That is a judgment based on available facts and critical thinking.
Unfortunately, I must disagree, based on my position that I don't believe you really know what God I believe in, per my comments above. If I've pre- or misjudged you in this, I sincerely apologize. But I truly believe it is the other way around. Please feel free to prove me wrong.
Again, peace to you... and I look forward to your comments/responses!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
