Redemption, Salvation, Atonement? The fly in the ointment (page 9)

tec

Bear with me here, but that doesn't make any sense to me. Are you saying Jesus could have come here, shown us the way to live, not die, and we then could just follow Jesus' example and be right with God and forgiven?

Sorry, I went to work, and I have to go back in about fifteen minutes.

In answer, perhaps. But then he would not have shown us to be loyal and forgiving even unto death;something we are not always able to do... unless it suits us to do so. He would not have shown us that he loves us by saying, 'forgive them, father.' He could have said no, called for angels to put a stop to things, but he gave his will over to God's, and God is the one who knew that this was the way it had to be. Do I know why? I can think and reason, but I don't KNOW and cannot state my thoughts as fact.

The only thing I can DO is continue to understand small parts of a bigger picture.

The only think I can KNOW is that I trust Christ as implicitly as He trusted his Father; I KNOW God only if I look to Christ. The rest are things that I think, through reason, through example, through experience.

I use a lot of perhaps' when I discuss things, in the hopes that people can just consider other options or ways of looking at issues, other than what we have all rigidly been taught. Perhaps because I wasn't raised in any rigid teaching, this comes easier for me. I don't know. But I do know that things in the OT are not as God wanted them to be; too often he sent prophets to speak against those things - such as sacrifice. I know that mainstream Christianity teaches things that are not Christian as well. So I think that we need to reason for ourselves, looking past creeds and doctrines and religion, and if we want to know anything about God (biblical or Father of Christ) then we have to look through Christ.

We have the bible; we have reason; we have Christ; we have the universe and the experiences we take away from life. Everyone knows that my bottom line is that if Christ didn't do it, demand it, teach it... then God doesn't/didn't either.

Tammy

factfinder

@SweetBabyCheezits-

You ask how is it JUST that we inherited sin and death from Adam and EVE? It is NOT just!

You are concerned for your friends baby who died- for which sins?

I had 4 BROTHERS who died as babies before I was born. My best friend had 2 babies who died at birth. Is it JUST? Not at all!

Was it just for my beloved Mom to suffer and die a prolonged, painful death as she prayed for God to help her and was ignored? No it was not JUST.

I am( and have been for the past 11 years) dealing with anger at God issues. I understand how everyone feels.

You mention Adam got only 1 chance and Peter got 3. But Adam was a perfect man with a unique relationship to God. God looked at Adam's sin of rebellion much more harshly than Peter becoming weak and denying Christ.

When I said Jesus, as a sinless, perfect human, had the same prospect Adam had- that is, he now had what WE need, not what he needs. He can use the value of that right to eternal life AS A PERFECT HUMAN to buy back Adam's offspring from death. He could give , for OUR use, the right to perfect , everlasting life here on earth- this is what Adam had and threw away, that WE would have inherited from him.

If Jesus had not agreed to come to earth, become as Adam was- a PERFECT HUMAN, remain sinless and thus gain and give up what WE needed, none of us would be able to have everlasting life. We could only get it from another PERFECT HUMAN and outside of Adam and Eve there would never be any.

Jesus came to buy back what Adam threw away - the right to perfect human life on a paradise earth. Jesus did not need this for himself.

God did not have to send Jesus to do this.

Jesus did not HAVE to go through all of this.

If God hates us he could have just let us all die and go out of existance! But he didn't. Yes we are all still dying. But that is because the value of Jesus' sacrifice has not been applied to us yet.

Why could God not have just forgiven? He has his standards he holds to. And there is no indication anywhere in the Bible that Adam or Eve ever asked God to forgive them.

Why do WE have to suffer and die because Adam and Eve sinned? I do not think it is fair or just, but it is the way things are.

Like I said before, I am trying to work out my own issues of anger towards God.

I am sorry your friends baby died. But I am even more sorry that my best buddy's babies died. And I am even more sorry that my 4 older brothers died as babies and I am am even more extremly sorry my beloved Mom died. (and my Dad too.) And they died because two people who lived thousands of years ago ate fruit they were not supposed to. Is this just?

There is much I do not understand in all of this. Much makes no sense at all.

SweetBabyCheezits

I do not think it is fair or just, but it is the way things are.

FF, I understand the need believe and I hope you're able to enjoy some peace of mind. If I could allow myself believe in something better, I would too.

As it is, since I have no evidence of a benevolent spirit interacting with man, all I can do is eliminate ideas that logically contradict themselves. If a creator of man does indeed exist, it hasn't given me any reason to believe it is reachable.

Best regards,

SBC

3dogs1husband

Hi SBC! I sorry this is sooo OT, but love the nes Picture...awe Jesus and a Baby Dino!! LOVE IT!

factfinder

SBC- thank you! I wish we could both have peace. What I believe is all mixed up. I have doubts, questions... ever since I discovered jws are not God's organization- I do not really know what to believe. I know what I used to believe! I'm trying to work it out.

I hope we can both find peace of mind.

I am blind- I did not see that your picture is of Jesus with a baby Dino! I love that pic too! Thanks for pointing it out 3dogs1husband!

But I am sorry I could not encourage you or give you satisfactory answers to your questions. There is so much I do not know.

SweetBabyCheezits

Thanks, 3D1H. It's, in part, for my 3 year old. He's obsessed with dinos.

FF, if I could ever be a Christian again, I'd want to be like you, Psac, and Tammy. Hang on to that. It's a nice contrast from the de facto standard. I may argue in behalf of my perspective but I have no reason to complain about yours.

Oh, and please don't feel bad about not being able to give satisfactory answers. I believe that rational questions will always outnumber rational answers and the ability to accept that is a quality that I really admire.

Take care, friend.

factfinder

SBC,

Thank you for your kind words! I hope I can eventually find beliefs that will bring me peace of mind and hope. Yes, it is true- there never seems to be answers to all of our questions. But I hope you can find comfort. It is so hard to really understand how God could allow terrible things to happen to people. Little babies did nothing wrong. Does God really care about us? Religions say yes- but then bad things happen and the evidence seems to be lacking. There are many contradictions.

You take care too, my friend.

startingover

SBC,

Great thread! The fly in the ointment indeed!

Kudos to you and SP for continuing on in a discussion where definitions are such a moving target.

Redemption, Salvation, Atonement? The fly in the ointment

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