Juan Viejo, at the very least, it seems clear to me that the single intent behind the NWT is having a Bible of their own that will say what they want it to say.
Translating the NWT in the Shadows
by JuanMiguel 123 Replies latest watchtower bible
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St George of England
St. George, the NWT you have in England uses American spellings like "color" instead of "colour," is that what you're talking about? Or is it even worse than that sort of thing? I always assumed the UK had their own version of NWT.
Yes the US spelling of words is what I talking about; there are literally thousands of words that are spelled differently. Here in the UK we do NOT have our own version of the NWT, nor do we have any other WTS material in UK English, with the exception of the Kingdom Ministry.
Over the years I have noticed the spelling ability of JWs to be lacking and I attribute this to reading of so much 'americanised' material.
e.g:
cheque - check, draught - draft, fulfil - fulfill, grey - gray, mould - mold, tyre - tire; the list goes on. Among the general population, few children will be as exposed to US spelling as JW children and this is were the problem starts.
George
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clarity
JuanMiquel, I don't know where you came from but so glad you showed up here!
Your story would be extremely interesting I'm quite sure.
Thanks for this information on bible translation, very 'meaty' as always and easily understood.
"The name YHWH is a way of God giving his name and yet withholding it at the same time. One cannot get a "handle" on God"
Love this statement it explains a lot.
Not only do the witnesses blurt out the name Jehovah like a 'loose canon', it has become a brand name ... much like Campbell Soup!! lol
Also very interesting experience from Juanviejo2!
clarity
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PSacramento
It's threads like this that keep me coming here, thanks Juanmiguel, truly.
Personally I have a few bibles and interlinears, I have the Message bible, the NRSV, the Jerusalem, the NASB and the ESV.
At times Ilike to compare verses and translations, just to see the differences.
I like the Greek interlinear of the NT that is done in parallel with the NRSV because it adds footnote to all the passages that have a variance showing what the variance is, what translations have them and which of the oldest manuscripts they came from.
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factfinder
@JuanMiguel- in your article you mention the limited distribution the NWT has.
Do you have accurate figures for the NAB and other modern translations?
There have been more than 165 million copies of the NWT printed and distributed worldwide in close to 100 languages by Jw's- an amazing accomplishment. No other publishers print or distribute the NWT and it is not sold in stores.
How many copies of the NAB have there been printed and distibuted worldwide and how many languages is it in?
Do you know the language and distribution figures for the JB, RSV, NIV or others? I'm curious , if such information is available.
I found your posts here interesting, but except for your discussion on why you feel Jehovah's name is too holy to use or pronounce (my relatives say Ha-shem or write G-D, -I disagree with them) you provide no comparisons of scriptures between the NWT and NIB to show that the NWT is innacurate.
But you justify using the less accurate "blessed' , rather than the more accurate "happy" and seem to feel accuracy in translation should be superceded by using phrases that most people use. I admit there are phrases in the NWT that are difficult to understand due to literallness- still, to me, you argue in favor of the NWT as being accurate!
Your criticism seems to be with the fact that the authors, translators of the NWT chose not to make themselves known. Personally I do not care who the translaters are , of the NWT or ANY other versions of the Bible I have. If it is accurate that is what counts.
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JuanMiguel
Hi Factfinder,
I actually agree with you on many of those points as to which words are generally better understood to some persons. For example, the expression in Psalms and that found in Matthew is closer to "happy" than "blest." While I used to feel this disqualified "blessed," the two-syllable state of being, this was because I was pronouncing it like the word "blest," the past tense of having received a blessing from someone (and for the Catholic audience who understands "blessed" the way NWT readers understand "happy" in these instances, the NABRE does it's job very well).
First, you may want to re-read my original article. It was NEVER intended to be a recommendation of the NABRE itself or Catholicism. Neither was the challenge the accuaracy of the NWT. The difference was that if the NWT is so accurate then "why" has it been produced in the shadows by comparison. If renditions such as the Catholic NABRE are supposed to be inferior as the JWs claim, such claims would be hard to substatiate in the face of such an "inferior" work like the NABRE--which took approxiamtely 50 years to come to this point, and the work of over 100 scholars, all of whom the NABRE provides information on.
Again this was not meant to be taken as a recommendation to use the NABRE or any Catholic Bible version.
1. How many copies of the NAB have there been printed and distibuted worldwide and how many languages is it in?
The NABRE is an American English translation, the official text of the Roman Catholic Church is the United States of America. While it is used as the official text for other places where English is spoken, such as the Philippines and some English-speaking countries in Africa, it would not be in other languages.
Also, where English differs somewhat (such as in the Anglican usage in Canada and England), the official text is now the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV). The only Biblical text that all English-speaking countries have in common (or will, as it has just been revised as well) is their psalter, the Revised Grail Psalms by Conception Abbey.
Why is the NABRE not in other languages? Because each language group has its own official versions in the vernacular. You see in the Roman Catholic Church they have one lanugage that all Catholics know (or at least should know) that allows them to speak to one another and to use in common when they worship as one--and that is Latin. The official text for Roman Catholic Church in Latin is the Nova Vulgata, that is their international version.
2. Do you know the language and distribution figures for the JB, RSV, NIV or others? I'm curious, if such information is available.
I was too, and it took me two years to find the answer. Unlike the Watchtower, publishers don't keep such records. They count how many books get sold and thus contribute to best-selling status, but not every edition of a Bible that gets placed in the hands of others is a "sold" copy. Many are given away for free (we are talking about a religion that is concerned on serving the needs of others, after all). These copies were until just recently not accounted for as they are now. I have no idea why publishers did not keep these numbers or what got them to start recording them.
While the numbers are still coming in on the NAB, as of last week it sold about 1 million copies each week since 1970. However, early market indications from one of the several publishers who is printing editions of the NABRE, as well as copies already sold on Amazon. com since its release on Ash Wednesday of 2011 exceeded 10,000 for just one edition. And (as of this writing) on Amazon. com the NABRE holds the top three spots for best-selling books this past week--and that;s just since this past Wednesday. Based on this number alone, the NABRE is expected to surpass the 1 million-a-week number. Remember, these numbers represent only the United States and a few other countries that use American English.
However, I don't know the exact number of the other versions because the distributors and the publishers aren't completely sure either. According to CBA, which only watches the market for Protestant versions in English, the New International Version is the number one selling version in English in the United States. However the CBA does not monitor Catholic, Orthodox, or other versions.
And, according to international market reports (I will have to work for a while to assemble them all, but for the moment my time is limited--outside of America, the New Jerusalem Bible is the most owned Catholic Bible in English. Again, early reports suggest that the NABRE may "dethrone" that soon, with the American version being on top for the first time since it was released.
3. You provide no comparisons of scriptures between the NWT and NIB (I think you mean NAB) to show that the NWT is innacurate.
To beat this already thrice-beaten dead horse, this really was not a post advocating accuracy in translation. It was about how open the process has been for anyone to investigate and even have a part in ensuring the accuracy of the NABRE in comparison with the NWT and Watchtower procedures in general.
Also, up till then, the NABRE had not been released. The information was in the news, and from aritcles in AP and Reuters, as well as from a few Catholic news sources and some secular magazines, and from such sources I was able to piece together what I wrote about. I eventually purchased a NABRE, and only now since its release this past Wednesday can anyone make such a comparison.
But since I wasn't writing necessarily about which was more accurate, your question doesn't really apply too much. I can say that after a few days I am sure the NABRE far-surpasses the scholarship of the NWT--I've seen a more complex footnote apparatus in the NABRE than in any version I have ever come across, just to mention one point--and it's up-to-date English reads far smoother than the NWT by far.
4. Personally I do not care who the translaters are, of the NWT or ANY other versions of the Bible I have. If it is accurate that is what counts.
And that's the point I was trying to bring out. JWs don't care who the translators of "the most accurate version of the Bible" are, but at the same time they recognize that having an accurate translation is important because of the fact that our very life is at stake.
By comparison the NABRE doesn't claim to be perfect, just reflecting the latest in scholarship. It is big news since the NABRE will change the way most Americans hear, read, and quote Scripture, and this will change American English to do a degree. (There are more Roman Catholics than any other type of Christian Americans, and thus changing the official version of Scripture used in worship and study for the majority is a very big deal.) Because so many people's lives and American English will be affected, directly and indirectly, the NABRE feels it is important that we can reach the translators for questions on help to understand the choices made and how they came to be. Only this way can the NABRE verify the accuracy of its text on every aspect possible. Since the NWT translators can't be identified, they cannot be approached. And if you can't approach them, your can't verify the accuracy of the NWT work as well in that way.
Now I probably don't care much either as to who these people are. But at least the NABRE can't have someone challenge its work on the basis that its translators were not equipped for the task they undertook. People do that to the NWT all the time, and that's something neither you nor anyone can fully get an answer to as they can for a translation like the NABRE. You would think that "the most accurate" Bible would surpass the NABRE in all areas, at least in the most important and most asked about.
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JuanMiguel
A big "YOU'RE WELCOME" to others who have thanked me and found this information useful. It has helped me also to appreciate the translation process of all versions, not just the ones being discussed. I will be looking at Bibles very differently next time I visit a bookstore.
And, correction, the NAB sold 1 million copies a year, not a week--someone has not had enough coffee and sugar in his system yet!
Behold, Juan is far from perfect himself. Or so said those who produced him who, like the NWT, are too embarassed to come forward and admit having any part in his existence.
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Curtains
I think blessed gives the text a foreignising element which adds the sort of distance people appreciate. Happy in contrast makes the text more understandable and current and sometimes people prefer this.
In short it is all down to personal preference as you guys are indicating
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factfinder
@JuanMiguel-
Thank you for your answers! I understand your point is that the authors of the NWT should be accessable to people, not secret . For some reason, and this is very frustrating to me- the WTS keeps a lot of things secret and with no reasons why.
I like the NWT for its accuracy but also like other versions such as the NIV and TEV for making certain verses easier to understand.
Perhaps since you now have a copy of the NABRE after you have time to examine it you could post some examples of how its modern English is easier to understand than the NWT.
Yes I DID mean NAB , not NIB- sorry about that!
Regarding how many copies are printed and distributed:
Each publisher knows how many copies they ordered from the printer and how many were shipped.
The fact that there are more than 60 million Catholics in the USA compared to 1 million witnesses, and over a billion Catholics worldwide compared to 7.5 million witnesses, I find it a credit to the witnesses the effort they put forth to publish the NWT in so many languages (close to 100) and have distributed worldwide over 165 million copies! This must put the NWT near the top of the list of all Bible versions ever published!
I agree that , since the NWT is touted by the WTS as being the most accurate translation available they should not be so secrative about it. I wish they would make a lot more information available to the public- I guess there are some things they'd prefer the public not find out!
Thank you very much for your post JuanMiguel!
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JuanMiguel
Hi Factfinder,
Yeah, it seems we get where the other is coming from.
You Would Think They Know, But They Don't
The reason publishers have not keept such records on all books printed until recently is really simple. Ready for this? There are too many books in the world.
Ever been to a library...a very big library? Imagine how many copies of each book were printed and over how many years. Consider that most libraries have every book published. Add the varying factor of mistakes in distribution, counting, printing, and the like. Mulitiply these figures by how many years publishers have existed and by the number of books they have published yearly. Don't forget editions that are owned by the publisher but by law have to be published by another group due to translation in languages or distribution laws. Do this for every book ever published in the world by every publisher for every year books have been published.
Now, where would you keep the records and how would you manage these records? Who would handle them?
And there's the rub. Apparently some have tried, but until recently with the invention of computerized data management systems there was no way to do this efficiently. And even though many records are now being kept, it is humanly impossible to go back for hundreds of years and digitize all this information, let alone track down what just doesn't exist.
So the truth is that publishers don't know those factors for most books published prior to the late 1990s. I know this because as a filmmaker I also work with the book publishing business in my film restoration projects.
The number of Bibles distributed and sold is even harder to determine. For example the CBA has the NIV at the top of its list, but by comparison the King James, the NRSV, the Revised Standard Catholic Edition, the New American Standard and the NAB are used by more people in the United States. What is happening? It is suspected that some evangelical religious groups are purchasing large numbers of the NIV for distribution purposes, and due to this the NIV lands on top.
But if you’ve ever been a Witness and gone out in field service in the United States then you experience agrees more or less with the list I’ve given—which is also the educated guess made by Bible distribution groups—and this puts the NIV down on the list and its numbers suspect (similar to JWs having large numbers of publications at home that get printed and get counted as such, but never see the light of day in the hands of another person). In fact it’s by far a KJV (Protestants) or a NAB (Catholics) that you’ll find more often than an NIV.
One Publisher for Jehovah's Witnesses, a Myriad for the NAB
The JWs have it easy in that only the Watchtower publishes its own materials. This is not true for Catholic books and Bibles. There have been quite a few publishers of the NAB since its release in the 1970s including, but not limited to, Catholic Book Publishing Company, Oxford Press, Our Sunday Visitor, Fireside, World Publishing...and this does not take into account those that published audio and electric (computerized) versions or those in Braille for the sight impaired.
And whereas the NWT comes in generally one version, there are study editions of the NAB and special parish editions, editions for RCIA members, family Bible editions, youth study editions, etc., etc., each consisting not only of the NAB text but of additional material approved for study by the Catholic Church. And each edition can have special versions printed such a large print, or audio.
So keeping track has been difficult. And the NAB is not an international version. It is the official version for the United States. No other translations are based on it as new versions can only be made from the original language. They can be based on the principles of a rendition in one language (such as the Jerusalem and New Jerusalem are based on the principles found in a French version by the same name), but the best manuscripts and a board of translators of Catholics, Orthodox, Protestant, and Jewish scholars as well as laypersons should be included in the process. (If a Bible translation for Catholics does not meet these standards, it will not be approved (receive an imprimatur or recognitio) by the Church. Without such a special approval, Catholics will not use them.)
The NWT Numbers by Comparison...Or Rather, No Comparison At All
Since the NWT is a translation in several languages, its numbers include copies printed for every language group. The NABRE is in American English only. Its numbers reflect distribution in the United States and other areas where American English is spoken (and this does not reflect the number of other Catholic versions, even those published in Canada and England where Anglican English versions of the New Revised Standard Version have recently received recognitio for official use in the liturgy).
While the number of the NWT may sound impressive, for a true comparison with the NABRE you would have to count only those copies printed in English and distributed in the United States. Like the case for Canada and England, you could not include the numbers of English copies in these countries to get a good understanding.
Plus you have to take into account that while the NABRE is the official version, there are several American English versions of the Catholic Bible on the market, each approved for Catholic use for private reading and study. These include the Catholic editions of the American English version of the NRSV (which reads differently from the NRSV Anglican Version), the Revised Standard Catholic Edition, the Revised Standard Version, 2 nd Edition (a revision of the RSV-CE text, but independent of the NRSV, and several others. Some Catholics don’t wish to own a copy of the official version because it gets printed as used in the liturgy in missals and the Liturgy of the Hours as necessary. The NWT is also not sold, so it is not on the market nor is it in competition with other versions approved for Jehovah’s Witnesses to own and use.
Counting preorders, the total number of NABREs sold in the United States for Ash Wednesday, Thursday and Friday of last week alone is approximately 26,286 for those three days (the actual number will be available later this week and is expected to be higher as it will include Saturday and Sunday sales). How many NWT in English were placed with people in the United States alone for those same days? The average each week for the NABRE for 2011 is expected to exceed 25,000 each week in the U.S. How many NWTs will the Witnesses be placing in the United States each week this year? How many did they place last year?
And while there have been over 165 million copies of the NWT in various languages since its initial release in 1961. These means, on average, Jehovah’s Witnesses print have distributed 3,300,000 each year.
Compared with approved Catholic versions, according to numbers from the United Bible Society, the Catholic Church has translated the Bible, or at least portions thereof, in about 2,000 languages or more. The number of copies it has produced and distributed throughout the centuries reaches into the billions, in fact practically innumerable. Everyday approximate 350,000 new Catholics members get baptized into the faith (not all infants for those who want to jump on that), and many of these receive their first copy of the Scriptures then. If just a quarter of these get a new Catholic Bible at this time, that would mean 87,500 new Catholic Bibles get distributed everyday, equaling 31,937,500 each year.
Again, JW NWT: 3.3 million each year
Catholic Bibles: 31.9 million each year
And don’t forget, more than Catholics go out of their way to own a Catholic Bible, so these are not included in the daily and yearly numbers, whereas the number for the NWT is all-encompassing.
So don’t expect the NWT’s name to make it on any lists of most published and distributed Bible translations any time soon.
When I get a brake this week and some time I will see if I can make some good comparisons with what I find in the NABRE. In the meantime you can compare the NIV, the NRSV, and the New Jerusalem Bible, to name only a few, and see that the English used in these versions is far easier to understand than the NWT without sacrificing accuracy.