Translating the NWT in the Shadows

by JuanMiguel 123 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    From my understanding of Trinitarian belief, some believe that the three are one. Some believe that the three are seperate and yet equal forming one God head. So you still need to have a belief that the Holy Spirit or (holy Spirit) is a seperate being all together.

    I cannot see this anywhere. Nowhere can I see Jesus claiming to be equal to the father or the Holy Spirit being equal or indeed seperate being.

    I am enjoying ALL the points being raised. It is giving me something to think about. And testing my (current ideas) beliefs.

    Bring it on I say!!!! I want the truth!!!! (the actual truth, not the other versian) and maybe before I die I might see an inkling of it.

    Wonderment - I currently have the NWT, KJ and New Jerusalem open reading John. (desperately need some more versians). What a beautiful thing! As you say, we miss out on the full picture if we only stick to one translation.

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    Juan Miguel:

    You are so right that if a Catholic or Protestant render a controversial scripture (of potential trinitarian interpretation) such as John 8:58 or Jn 1:1 as the JWs do, it does not mean they stopped being Trinitarians. I could not agree more with u on that point. I may have perhaps expressed it wrong in the 1st place. Yes, if a Catholic or Protestant render Jn 1:1 "divine" it does not mean he believes that JWs are right and that they no longer believe in the trinity. The same if they render as Jn 8:58 as I have been, or I was.

    What I was trying to get across is that some here in this forum and elsewhere, strongly believe that the NWT is corrupt because they differ from the popularly accepted versions. My point is that there are Catholic and Protestants who, though trinitarians, understand the technical grammatical issues as JWs do, and render it likewise, and hardly no one accuses them of corruption as they do with NWT. And some of these Catholics and Protestants go into lenghty explanations that go against the popular grain, and many folks either don't know about it, or else accept it as "good" and "impartial," but turn around and hastily try to demonize the NWT.

    I believe in fairness and balance. I don't think any one religious group has absolute truth, no matter their lofty claims. I believe only that Christ is the way to God and the truth. To the degree that any religious group adhere to Scripture, they will correspondingly reflect divine truth. I see some here, ex-JWs converting overnight into a Catholic or Protestant religion, as if they suddenly saw the light, and everything in their rediscovered world is truth and the WT Society can only represent corruption. I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle, different religious views CAN be considered as potentially rightful exegesis. I am convinced that 100% of what the WT Society teach is not heresy, just as I feel that Catholic and Protestants or Jewish are NOT 100% right. It is so easy to get caught up in the belief that truth can be franchised.

    My main objection to the WT Society's teaching, has do to with their broad effort to manipulate members into their mold... have them serve WT interests slavishly and support their humongous infrastructure. Their cunning manipulation in their shunning practice, their deceit in dragging a virtually "house-to-house" preaching mode with every member is ugly. And Mt 24:45 is the most abused scripture in their arsenal. Of course, many of their doctrines need to be revisited, and changed.

    still thinking: I like your attitude. Keep using the versions u already have. Some of my favorites besides the ones u have are: Young's Literal Translation, Jerusalem Bible, Douay, The Message, Schonfield, Today's English Version, NIV, Phillips, The Bible in Living English, American Standard Version, Kingdom Interlinear, Paul R. McReynolds Interlinear, Rotherham, The Living Translation, Kenneth Wuest, The Bible in Basic English and Concordant Greek text. There are many others I could recommend as well.

    Just remember, none are perfect. All reflect their personal religious views. And all of them are right and wrong in some places. But comparing bible versions is one of the best things a bible student can do to enrich their spiritual lives.

    Blessings!

  • TTWSYF
    TTWSYF

    Does anyone know if there is another bible that translates John 8:58 as "I have been' as opposed to 'I am"? I cannot see how 'I have been', could be accurate in keeping with the chapter.

    Please let me know so I can bash that one too......joking , of course.

    I do not hate the NWT or JWs, but I do hate the lies that the WTS promote. They promote it in all of their literature so it stands to reason that they would put it in the NWT and there is definitive proof of it aside from what has been debated to this point. I think definitive anyway.

    When one translates anything, they may be limited by their knowledge of the giving language, but adding or subtracting ideas/words is just plain wrong, isn't it?

    Colossians 1 :16-17 [refering to Jesus] 'by him all things were made...he is before all things'

    The NWT takes the same verses and makes them 'by him all [other] things were made....he is before all [other] things. Translated accurately in Greek it states [a few times] that Jesus created all things.

    compare that with Heb 3;4 'he that constructed all things is God'

    Mind you, I do not give that as an example trying to convince anyone of my beliefs, but that seems to be the reason that words were added.

    Respectfully,

    dc

  • TTWSYF
    TTWSYF

    Still thinking wrote - From my understanding of Trinitarian belief, some believe that the three are one. Some believe that the three are seperate and yet equal forming one God head. So you still need to have a belief that the Holy Spirit or (holy Spirit) is a seperate being all together. I cannot see this anywhere. Nowhere can I see Jesus claiming to be equal to the father or the Holy Spirit being equal or indeed seperate being.

    Your questions about the Trinity should be addressed on another thread. Believe me, people [for and against] will reply. As far as not seeing were Jesus claimed divinity, to me the latest example of John 8 :58 is proof, obviously not to you.

    It would have been against Mosiac law to stone Jesus for saying 'I have been' Stoning offenses [under Mosian law] include blasphemy, fortune telling, false prophesy, leading others to idolatry, offering children to Molech, being a pervert [or certain sexual immoralitys] and being a rebellious son. If blasphemy wasn't the insinuation, then what was? Poor translation amongst them?

    Some one wrote [Wonderment?] I agree with scholar Jason BeDuhn when he says that 'the NWT is in some ways better than the standard translations.

    Which ways? The new testament has been revamped into something that it never was. That is probably the reason that those who agreed with the John 1;1 rendering of the 'the word was a god' all came from the 19th century. Any scholars back that rendering in the 21st century?

    The Watchtower position is quite clear in Reasoning from the scriptures [1985, pgs 276-277] The NWT was prepared by anointed witnesses of Jehovah, who transmitted his thoughts and declarations as accurately as possible. These men have chosen to remain anonymous, since they did not seek prominence, and God's word should stand on it's merits. The NWT is an accurate, largely literal translation from the original languages. It is not a loose paraphrase in which the authors add ideas that they believe will be helpful.

    I disagree with the Watchtower position because the examples that rebut their assertions are so overwhelming. Another example is

    Heb 1;8 'Thy throne o God is for ever and ever' [speaking of Jesus]

    NWT Heb 1;8 'God is your throne for ever and ever [speaking of Jesus]

    Which one is correct? Bring it to the interliniar.

    respectfully,

    dc

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    Wonderment - Given a choice of Bibles to just sit down and read. (not for making comparisons, although if you're anything like me you can't help yourself). Which would be your first choice. PM me if you don't want to publicize, I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND.

    TTWSYF - I think you do have a valid point about the NWT being traslated by the annointed and I happen to be questioning that topic on another thread if you'd like to join in. The only problem with that argument is that the writers are annonymous so how do you know for sure?

  • Terry
    Terry

    The bible, you'll recall, is not a book written by one author toward a particular purpose.

    The bible is a collection of writings.

    Consquently, it is not TEACHING a co-ordinated message!

    There is not a single-minded thrust to any particular view.

    WHY?

    Those writings passed through many hands over a long period of time.

    Each time it passed through new hands (copyists, translators, redactors, etc.) a filter was applied by a living, breathing thinking person

    who HELPED THE TEXT by tweaking it with "meaning". Clarifying (they would say.) (If you read it with this in mind you will discover a great many "asides" by the translator who is only too happy to tell you "Jesus meant" this or that.)

    The New Testament reflects the controversy of OPINION about Jesus and his identity vis a vis deity.

    Sometimes it is merely monotheistic. Sometimes Jesus is demi-god. Sometimes Jesus is superhuman and supernatural.

    How this is reconciled COMES AFTER THE FACT by whoever reads these writings (as they now appear.)

    By the 4th century c.e. the first effort to RECONCILE into an OFFICIAL ORTHODOXY comes along.

    Constantine convokes a meeting of all the prominent christian leadership from across the empire and puts them together to fight it out.

    These people did NOT agree with each other!

    But, with the Emperor's pressure, an ORTHODOX policy of belief was fashioned and we see it reflected from that point forward.

    The split, division and rupture over TRINITARIAN argument did not heal.

    The official efforts of Roman power to quash opposing views wiped out or drove underground non-Trinitarians and destroyed their writings.

    This is similar to what had been going on in Judaism before Jesus.

    Disagreements split Judaism into 3 main factions who went their separate ways stubbornly.

    Jesus drove a wedge.

    By the time A.D. 70 came along Rome had enough and destroyed the only focal point of Judaism: the temple. Radical elements were expunged leaving

    what was left of Judaism to deal with the competition: christianity which was largely passive-resistance and apocalyptic mysticism.

    Natural Jews resisted Jesus as Trinity. Converts (from pagan backgrounds where demi-gods were abundant) saw no problem with Jesus being more than human.

    To compete with the deified Roman Emperors and pagan pantheon of superhuman philosophy it is only natural that Christianity would become more and more driven to bigger, better, faster, more powerful product descriptions :)

    SUPER-JESUS!

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    still thinking:

    >>Given a choice of Bibles to just sit down and read. (not for making comparisons, although if you're anything like me you can't help yourself). Which would be your first choice.

    This is a very difficult, if not impossible question to answer, at least for me. Why? Because I like a variety of bible versions. If we have a choice, one bible version is not enough to gather the original thoughts from the inspired authors. It is only by comparison, that we can get closer to the inspired expressions. The process of translation always loses some of the original thoughts and nuances. To accomplish an accurate translation, the right understanding of the original writing is essential, and that is where the bible translation dilema comes in. Many of the "original" biblical statements are obscure, and some others are known only by those who lived in ancient times and culture. I don't think any one corporation or individual fully understands the Scriptures as we have them today. There are many missing links. That said, here are some bible versions I use often, but not the only ones.

    Study Bibles I like: I like the NIV Study Bible, the NWT Reference Bible, the Life Application Bible, and the Companion Bible.

    Literal versions: Young's Literal Translation, Rotherham, Byington, ASV, Concordant, Douay, NWT and Wuest.

    Easy Reading: The Message, The Living Translation, TEV, New Life Version.

    Interlinears: Kingdom Interlinear, Paul R. McReynolds Interlinear

    There are so many I like, and some which are good in a more limited way. If I had no choice but forced to keep only one out of hundreds of bible versions, it would be perhaps be the NWT. Somehow, I have grown to like it despite receiving the greatest of criticism and condemnation from many sources. I do trust it more than I do with other versions. But it does not mean I am blind to its limitations and biased tendencies in some places. That said, I am appalled to see so many folks fall in the trap with the belief that other versions somehow are "safe" and not biased. If I had the time and good eyesight, I would make public the hundreds of instances I find where popular versions deviate from the Hebrew and Greek text. And that is just for the English versions.

    Happy reading!

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    Wonderment I have four more versions on their way to me. Really looking forward receiving them. Thanks for your help. Interesting choice you make. I think it is true that it doesn't matter which you prefer as long as you always question and compare. But I am sure after a while there will be one that will be my first point of call. It will be interesting to see which one that ends up being.

    I get much more meaning from a scripture when I compare it to even one other translation. It becomes a joy to read instead of a fact finding mission. For the first time I am reading the bible for pure enjoyment and different translations just add to that.

    Just as there are many people on this site saying the same things. Sometimes all it takes is for someone to say it in a slightly different way. I then have a new and deeper understanding. For me the Bible is no different. How would I ever learn if I only ever listened to one person. Nowhere else do people learn that way. Why do religions insist on using that method? I would say because THEY benifit from doing that.

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    still thinking:

    I am glad to see someone with such honest endeavor. If you want to keep me posted with your new experiences, or if there is anything else you would like to discuss, feel free to e-mail sometime, at: [email protected]

    Blessings!

  • JuanMiguel
    JuanMiguel

    Having had time to look over the NABRE and with help from various persons, specifically a Catholic instructor of Scripture and an individual associated with the translation and publication of the NABRE, I have composed a comparison with the NWT as some have requested. It is by no means exhaustive, and I will present it in four parts over the period of a week to keep it from being overwhelming.

    Let me stress one more time, these points can be used with almost any modern formal equivalent translation on the market. The NABRE is just the one chosen for this example at the time I orginated this post.

    Accurate Even Without Using YHWH in the Text

    Before attempting anything else for a comparison, the first thing that loyalists to the NWT will want to point out is that not placing God's Holy Name in the text but substituting it with "LORD" or "GOD" makes the NABRE inaccurate. But this is not so. How one uses something shows how they venerate it. The difference in rendition on this point has to do with what Jehovah's Witnesses think making God's name as holy means and how this compares with that of Catholics and thus shapes their work of Bible transmission.

    Roman Catholics have a different approach to dealing with that which is holy. They treat the sacred as far more rare than that which we come into everyday contact with. To Catholics, something holy is special, separated from the mundane.

    In imitation of Jesus of whom the Bible faithfully reports never addressed YHWH in prayer by his Sacred Name (and thus left us the example of what he taught at Matthew 6:9), Catholics do not make us of the Holy Name of God as if it were something common. As written in The Wisdom of Ben Sira (a.k.a. Ecclesiasticus)--a book used by the Apostles and the first Christians and thus found in Catholic Bibles--at 23:9-10:

    Do not accustom your mouth to oaths,
    or habitually utter the Holy Name.
    Just as a servant constantly under scrutiny
    will not be without bruises,
    So one who swears continually by the Holy Name
    will never remain free from sin.

    Names and words we hear and/or use on an everyday basis can easily find their way into thoughtless expressions, even curses. To claim that imperfect people won't accidentally cause themselves or others to use God's name, YHWH, in vain by using it as commonly as any other name is not realistic. In fact it has been noticed that Jehovah's Witnesses, especially in public prayers offered at their meetings, assemblies, and conventions, will use God's name so frequently that people have mentioned that it seems as if there is a fear of not using it enough (as if God will refuse to hear a prayer that doesn't have his name in it or repeated frequently enough), and so the name gets "peppered" throughout as almost a token to ensure that God hears them.

    "In praying," Jesus taught as recorded at Matthew 6:7, "do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words." How did the pagans babble on and on? The footnote to this verse in the NABRE explains that "their babbling probably means their reciting a long list of divine names, hoping that one of them will force a response from the deity."

    Jesus taught that what was sacred and holy was not to be handled and used as commonly as other things around them. "Do not give what is holy to dogs, or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 7:6) Often those who mishandle God's name are proud of their practice and will use this as a basis, even a weapon, to critically discredit dependable translations of the Bible that have far more evidence of their accuracy and scholarship than the New World Translation does.

    But even if the Jehovah's Witnesses are right, and the Divine Name of God should be used in the manner of their example and teaching, then they belie their own claim by the way they render various texts in the New Testament.

    The Christian Greek Scriptures of the NWT proudly claims to restore the Divine Name to its proper place in the New Testament text (even though there are neither manuscripts nor outside sources that prove anything but the contrary). If one were to follow their rules, Hebrews 1:10 would be one example where ancient Scripture recovery proves they are either in the dark about the evidence or, as their footnotes in the NWT reference edition at this text suggests, they just purposefully refuse to follow what they see.

    Hebrews 1:10 quotes from Psalm 102:26 as rendered in the LXX version then common to the first-century Church: "At the beginning, O Lord, you established the earth..." But in the Masoretic Hebrew text of Psalm 102:26 we find: "Of old you laid the earth's foundations..." Where did the expression, "O Lord," found in Hebrews come from?

    The Masoretic text is not as old as the LXX version used by the first Christians. And their version of the LXX was based on a proto-Masoretic rendition of the Hebrew text which at that time of the writing of Hebrews read: "Long ago you, YHWH, founded the earth..." Thus when Hebrews 1:10 was originally composed, the word "Lord" in that verse was actually "Jehovah" in the mind of the writer and his audience.

    Since the NABRE is consistent in rendering texts as they appear in the original language, and it has been the practice of the Church since antiquity to substitute "Lord" or "God" for YHWH out of deep reverence and respect for its holiness and all that it represents, this consistency is also present in Hebrews 1:10 and throughout the NABRE.

    As for allowing the NWT to keep the "names of the translators secret" (as if publishing the name of a Bible translator would lead to undue, pride-inducing fame in the first place), and letting the translation stand on its own merits, the Jehovah's Witnesses' translation not only oversteps boundaries in its overuse of the name of God, it cannot remain consistent to its own claims as clear from its rendering of Hebrews 1:10, to name only one glaring example of this failure.

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