I'm a new study, need advice.

by Resistance is Futile 38 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  just n from bethel

  Welcome - and glad you're up to the task. Just so you know, it was my attempt to witness to a colleague of mine that helped me move on from the JWs. He said he didn't think he could ever accept the idea of a global flood as there was simply too much evidence to the contrary. At first I didn't believe him, but I did a lot of research on the various points about history and the flood, and came to the conclusion that he was right. After a while - it took a few years for me - it became so glaring obvious that the Bible's accounts of history were a joke, and it really shook me inside; how did I ever believe the Bible stories were not a myth in the first place? The fact that this was a neutral subject for all bible believers and not an attack on the JW religion made me feel completely unthreatened. Had he started in on the JW beliefs like dates and Russel and Rutherford or even the UN and pedophilia, I would have dismissed him as someone that just read some disgruntled websites. I never would have looked into his claims. But the Flood - hell, I could take on that objection no problem. Turns out - it was quite the problem.

  So - just so you know, it has been done. I'm living proof, and it was just a simple conversation during an informal witness to my friend. He had no intention of dissuading my beliefs, he just explained why he couldn't accept the Bible's account of the flood. I followed the Watchtower's advice and listened to his objections and went and researched them so I could get back to him. Turns out - he was right. Global flood never happened. Maybe you can do the same. Just be patient, but stick to your guns. Make them prove it to you. If they can't prove it happened, then at some point in their life they will have to start to wonder - what else do the JWs (and for that matter, the Bible) have wrong?

  Good luck.
• 

  Truthexplorer

  Hi

  Note: before I suggest the following, I am not a trinitarian and agree with the WT to a point about their view on the Trinity. But the following is a good suggestion.

  Mention to your study conductor that it is incredible why so many people within Christendom beleive in the Trinity; AND THEN SAY THE FOLLOWING

  If Jesus is OUR mediator, how could he be God? because he mediates between God and men as high priest; so he cant be God!

  He may probably say the following;

  yes christendom have the whole trinity doctrine wrong etc etc and he may then completely ignore the fact that you mentioned that Jesus is OUR mediator either knowingly or unknowingly depending on his WT teaching knowledge

  OR

  He will agree that Christendom have the whole Trinity doctrine wrong etc, but correct you on the fact that according to the society Jesus is mediator of the New Covenant which includes the 144000 only (that he is not mediator to the other sheep=us, but that we BENEFIT from the blessings of Christs mediatorship with the 144000 under the New Covenant arrangement). If he says this, then you can say 'innocently of course', oh, thats interesting, but I read somewhere in the new testament that Jesus is mediator between God and men?. Then say I am sure I read it somewhere etc and start looking for it in the index at the back and then find 1 Tim 2:5 and read to him)!!

  You could also say, well why do we pray to God through Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins if he is not OUR mediator?

  He will proably say, oh I will dig out some information for you, (or he will get the reasoning book out).

  Of course, you can be sure he will go into WT teaching mode and explain it away. But it will make him think!

  TE
• 

  blondie

  Check this website which summarizes quite a few doctrines and policies.

  www.jwfacts.com
• 

  Witness My Fury

  As said already, you are in an excellent position of neutrality, non threatening potential recruit means they cant resist making an effort to answer your questions if posed in a non threatening way. Play it long and play it cool.

  Throw him a bone but get him to do some leg work as well. Many topics to choose from but you may need to find a sweet spot of his to go with, some like prophecy, some history, others science, some are just religious through and through and the God is love angle may cut it, or quoting the gospel words of Christ may work for him instead. Find that interest that suits him. He may like facts. If so then you have an easier job.

  For me reading C.T.Russells own words in the Studies in the Scriptures (early stuff) where he PROVES scripturally and mathematically and any other way he can what happened in 1874 (Christ presence he reckoned) and what WILL happen in 1914 (Armageddon). Reading that in hindsight nearly 90 years later showed what a crock of shit it was for me and opened my eyes greatly to the fact that we have been mislead by his false ideas and the whole edifice is built on his mistaken speculations. Further reading (it takes lots btw) of the history of the end time religions like the Adventists, 2nd Adventists, 7th Day Adventists, Millerites and that fact that the Bible Students (early JWs) were based on them and their mistaken ideas showed that Russell offered nearly nothing new or even genuinely his own. Then the fact that the whole J.W religion hinges on 1914 and that can be PROVEN to be nothing but another FALSE speculation is it's complete undoing. Jerusalem was destroyed in 587BCE not 607BCE as Russell insisted. That is a fact that can be PROVEN. Thereby the religion is in error. But hey thats me and its taken a couple of years to get here. Grrrrrr

  Find his weak spot.
• 

  jamiebowers

  My best advice is to go to this You Tube channel and watch Tim Kilgore's series of Tough Questions for JWs. If I remember correctly, he's helped at least a few hundred people out of the Watchtower cult. I can put you in touch with him if you need to ask questions. He's a very bright, high energy young man.

  http://www.youtube.com/user/TimKilgore#p/c/D002E9FD31AFE092
• 

  Open mind

  Resistance is Futile said: " I remember it said attempt to talk to the persons pre-cult identity. What if they were born into the cult, how would you approach it then?"

  JWs are allowed to pursue outside interests, just not too much. So, find out whatever outside interests/hobbies/sports, etc he has and focus on them as much as you can. Particularly give honest praise where possible. It will establish common ground outside the religion.

  That's why 1 Cor 15:33 is such a staple scripture for the JWs: "Bad associations (i.e. you) spoil useful habits."

  I think your approach is practical and loving. Just remember that some people are actually better off in the religion.

  All the best,

  om
• 

  nolongerwaiting

  I don't have any advice but I wanted to say welcome. :)

  NLW's wife
• 

  IsaacJ22

  Resistance, I think I would take it a small piece at a time--at least, in the beginning. I don't know how dedicated she is to the WTS, but if she's "in" all the way, a long conversation will only scare her off. Or rather, scare her away from you and back into the Society's embrace. Remember that her motives are probably complex: she wants to be with her family, not just with the WTS. Don't trick yourself into thinking this will be simple. It might be, but don't count on it.

  You could show agreement or understanding in certain areas, then raise concerns in others to her. I would raise these same topics to anyone I was studing with as well as there is likely to be some crosschecking between these folks behind your back at some point. (I've been there.) If you never mention the areas of concern to your study conductor, they'll know you're just a plant to get her out.

  Gradually, after 6 months or so, you can begin to pull out after having second thoughts that you've been expressing to her and your conductors for a while. I would focus on the more cult-like qualities of the Society, and point out the differences between the Society and other religions that also see themselves as being Bible based. Hopefully, your bond will help her to take your doubts seriously. I would probably mention the fact that religions who see doubters as evil sound pretty cult-like, too.

  Eventually, it will be time to have a real conversation, but only once you've been in it long enough to have an honest, informed opinion. And only after you've planted seeds by pointing out the problems along the way, problems she will also have to think about. Remember, you can't just point out a flaw and expect it to stick. You have to have a conversation with her about the flaws along the way.

  Don't nag. Don't push too much or too often. Just give the Society's positives and negatives a fair amount of time and plant seeds. Hopefully, you'll both discover the flaws together and leave together. That's probably the best you can do. Don't lose patience or you could become a bad associate in her mind.

  We can, of course, help you with this along the way. :-)
• 

  Broken Promises

  I’m hoping that as he explains things out loud to someone who knows the right questions to ask he’ll begin to slowly realize that a lot of the things he’s been taught and forced to accept without question are not actually based on logic or reason.

  That something that happened to me before I exited. I was trying to explain the doctrine of a literal 144,000 to a Christian and the more I tried to explain it, the stupider it sounded, not just to him but to me!!!

  As for your disappearing Steve Hassan book, maybe your partner has secretly borrowed the book?
• 

  Black Sheep

  Hi Rif

  Welcome to the forum.

  I'm going to disagree with some of the advice here.

  You are worried that you might scare them off if you ask too many questions. You are right to worry. Keep the number of subjects to an absolute minimum. There are a whole bunch of things you can barrage them with. Don't do it. Just stick to something that your critical thinking skills can work with and keep on that subject. Keep them honest. Ask them for proof of anything they say that doesn't seem right. Make them feel guilty if they try to fool you in some way.

  It is a tightrope walk for sure. You have to ask your questions in such a way that they really feel they want to answer you.

  I will also suggest that you don't do too much research and don't find out too much about the doctrines and practices from Apostate websites and books. If they twig that you are getting your information & questions from Apostates they will go into damage control mode. Acting dumb is good. If you know too much you much you might be tempted to go too fast or hit them with something they hadn't told you about yet. Try to work with what they tell you and literature that they give you or refer you to. Feel free to look up references in that literature & come here and ask us if there is anything in that literature that might be of use.

  Act dumb.

  Ask questions on one subject at a time.

  Don't tell them if they are being stupid, just ask them for proof of what they just said and ask them to clarify any logical inconsistencies.

  Act offended if they try any trickery to avoid a question.

  When they answer a question, pause for a second and ask yourself ......... "Did they really answer my question, or did they just slightly change the subject and hope I wouldn't notice?"

  If they rephrase a question ........ Is it still the same question? It usually isn't. Point it out. Act offended.

  Stay calm.

  Love bomb them. Look like a potential recruit, but you just want some questions answered first.

  Lastly.... the primary doctrine, the one that keeps them all captive, is that Jesus selected them in 1919 to be Jehovah's sole channel of communication in our day. As long as they think that there is some chance that it is true, they are in danger form the WT. Never say it to them, but feel free to ask questions that encourage them to say it to you. If they ever say it, get them to state clearly what they would/should do if they ever found out it wasn't true? then come racing back here for more advice.

  Good luck

  Chris