61% of Americans OPPOSE Limiting Union Bargaining Power

by blondie 45 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  beksbks

  I just want them to paid realistically. Like the rest of America is.

  LOL, but the rest of America isn't. And quite frankly the wages these public employees make is in many cases less than thier private counterparts. One reason for that is that over the years they have negotiated better retirement and benefits for lower wages. So in other words the state made promises to buy now and pay later. Now they want to renege on that arrangement.

  As for how non union workers benefit from unions, they set higher standards for safety, wages and benefits. Across the board.

  Having the local taxpayer fund their pension fund and pay 100% for their insurance is crazy!!

  They don't.
• 

  jamiebowers

  but we support unions, because if they lose power, all workers will suffer.

  How would a non-union worker suffer if they lose power?

  Well, I was going to answer that myself, but Beksbks pretty uch wrapped it up by saying:

  As for how non union workers benefit from unions, they set higher standards for safety, wages and benefits. Across the board.
• 

  beksbks

  Tax Dollars. Our tax dollars allow politicians, who want to stay in power, to *negotiate* contracts. The politicians are only giving the union bosses what *they* want. Union assured votes for said politian. It has been a never ending cycle. Seemingly.

  I have been in two separate unions. I know how hard it is to fire a union member. It is almost impossible. One was stealing from the compnay. I had him on camera. For months I monitored and documented his actions. I was not his supervisor, just a worker. I was also the union rep which put me in a bind. They (The union guys) wanted me to lie and destroy the film. I wouldn't and was really put into a tough situation. In the end, it took over 3 months, with him being on paid leave, for the investigation and union reps to come in etc. He was fired with full pension. He had been there for 15 years. In the private sector he would have been out the door and perhaps prosecuted. He stole over $15,000 worth of product and customers.

  It is even harder to fire a teacher or cop who has union reps. I could find stories, but, why bother? No one here wants to believe it.

  My attitude is not "I don't have it why should they", my attitude is "I'm a taxpayer and our state is broke". They are employees of the state and the state, as their employer can no longer afford the ridiculous terms that were negotiated by the previous crooks in office. Between pay and benefits, those state and local workers are suitable for WalMart. Maybe. They are lucky the Neotism system has worked so far. Most of them are lazy and not at all happy to help you when you go to their place of work. They don't give you proper information and they don't do their jobs well. Again, in the private sector, they would be immediately fired and a new person put in their place who would try harder and be happy.

  Are all WalMart workers happy? No. Are Target workers? Mostly. I haven't had a negative experience at Target. I have at WalMart.

  I just want them to paid realistically. Like the rest of America is. Having the local taxpayer fund their pension fund and pay 100% for their insurance is crazy!! The local governments simply cannot afford it.

  What a bunch of misinformed nonesense. I was a manager in a large private business. You think it was any easier to get someone fired there? You think there weren't lazy unhappy employees? The notion that human beings behave any differently in public as opposed to private employment is absurd. But blaming all our ills on public employees is the current agenda by the neocon puppet masters
• 

  sammielee24

  I have been in two separate unions. I know how hard it is to fire a union member. It is almost impossible. One was stealing from the compnay. I had him on camera. For months I monitored and documented his actions. I was not his supervisor, just a worker.

  ---

  Sorry you had a bad experience.

  I worked for 7 years in a unionized job at a private manufacturing plant. Clocked in, the job was physically demanding, my bathroom breaks were timed and monitored, lots of cuts and minor injuries. My union reps were good and most certainly, they negotiated for my wages and benefits. People were fired whenever they violated company rules - I oughta know because my ex husband, a union hater, was the guy who used to fire some of them.

  I went back to school and ended up in the financial division of a non profit, public sector facility. My starting wage was half what the factory paid me but I was willing to take the job in order to have better working conditions at a job that was more suited to my abilities and capabalities. It took me years to make up the financial loss - years. I was non unionized and it was impossible to negotiate. The only time we got a raise was when the union managed to get an increase - no other time. The benefits were almost the same.

  Do I begrudge the union factory workers their due? Not on your life! I worked it. Physically hard jobs where the average worker was used up before he got to retire. Do I begrudge the office workers and clerks their due? Not on your life. I've worked like a dog at that job as well - it's just not as hard physically. There are different stressors on both sides but given either or and I would take a union environment where employers are forced to both acknowledge and work with an employee and address issues as they arise.

  During my many years in a non unionized environment, I saw a lot of things go unchecked and a lot of abuse of power. I saw a lot of anger and hate toward unions by management officials...clearly subdued when faced with a union rep - but very noticeable at all other times.

  There is no perfect story and no perfect experience but all unions are not bad and yes, unions are still needed despite what many people think because even with rules, regulations and laws, the human mind and emotions are complex and those complexities keep some people in jobs where they hold no power. sammies
• 

  bluesapphire

  Hi VIII,

  Why on earth do you need to pay into your own retirement plan? Why do you pay for a part of your own insurance? Why do you have to negotiate your pay? It's because you do not have a union.

  I have never understood the attitude of "I don't have it so why should they have it?" I've always thought if they have something I want, I should fight to get the same thing.

  FYI, a union member can be fired for doing a shitty job. It happens all the time. Sometimes the union workers can be fired for missing work, it happens all the time and the Unions do not protect them.

  Public employees are taxpayers too. There are bad workers everywhere. I don't agree with protecting a bad worker, unionized or not. But the FACT is that much of the protections employees get from the Labor Board (not unions) are thanks to the hard work and sacrifice of unions and union workers/strikers of an earlier time.

  I think the bar has been lowered so much as far as what employees should expect for their hard work that it makes it seem like what union members is out of line. It's NOT! There was a time when large corporations gave great pensions and an employee who worked for a large company could expect to retire happily and well provided for after all his/her years of dedication. Not any more. It used to be that COLA raises were common practice. Not any more. It used to be that insurance was affordable. Not any more. But instead of looking at the causes of all of those breakdowns, the GOP and their ilk found a scapegoat: public employees and their unions. Yeah. Right.

  Pension funds are under funded thanks to Wall Street. The governors of the states with this problem should go to Wall Street which was bailed out by the American Taxpayer (Yes, even the public employees)!!!

  And anyone who is NOT a billionaire yet supports anti union agenda and at the same time supports Citizens United is an idiot.
• 

  darthfader

  In my opinion all american workers are overpaid. If you take 99.5 percent of the people out there (there are a slim few exceptions) and compare their wages to those in other countries for the same jobs, the american worker is paid 30% to 80% more than the average. The real problem is that the US wages cannot compete with globalization. And other countries willing to exploit their workers. Yet at the same time, we worship at the alter of the lowest prices (read Walmart) in a cannibalistic way like eating our own young. Rallying individuals into unions to use collective bargaining for better wages is only making the matters worse... We are pricing ourselves out of our own jobs...

  80% of the national income is composed of wages... There's not enough money at the top 1% of the wealth in the country to fix these problems.

  We have to change our mindset and look to purchase things locally from the mom and pop shop/entrepreneurs...

  .02
• 

  beksbks

  I agree with you to a point Darth. There are many ways to bring this disparity back in line. Trade policy, Stock Market, Taxes, Wages................there are answers other than continuing to join the race to the bottom.
• 

  darthfader

  The race to the bottom will have to end with the consumer. American consumers are the only ones with enough purchasing power to change the "cheaper=better" mindset. Even if all the wealthy (top 1%'ers) went out and spent all their cash buying american goods, it would only amount to a "speed-hump"...

  Cheers
• 

  villabolo

  James_woods:

  but we support unions, because if they lose power, all workers will suffer.

  How would a non-union worker suffer if they lose power?

  It's elementary my dear Watson, they can unionize.

  Villabolo
• 

  Robdar

  VIII:

  Hi Robdar,

  Tax Dollars. Our tax dollars allow politicians, who want to stay in power, to *negotiate* contracts. The politicians are only giving the union bosses what *they* want. Union assured votes for said politian. It has been a never ending cycle. Seemingly.

  But don't corporations do the same thing? I am all for eliminating lobbyists and limiting political donations from special interest groups. Our politicians are whores providing the best blow jobs to their highest paying customers.

  I have been in two separate unions. I know how hard it is to fire a union member. It is almost impossible. One was stealing from the compnay. I had him on camera. For months I monitored and documented his actions. I was not his supervisor, just a worker. I was also the union rep which put me in a bind. They (The union guys) wanted me to lie and destroy the film. I wouldn't and was really put into a tough situation. In the end, it took over 3 months, with him being on paid leave, for the investigation and union reps to come in etc. He was fired with full pension. He had been there for 15 years. In the private sector he would have been out the door and perhaps prosecuted. He stole over $15,000 worth of product and customers.

  It is even harder to fire a teacher or cop who has union reps. I could find stories, but, why bother? No one here wants to believe it.

  You must have been in a stronger union than I was. I was a member of the Communication Workers of America. There is NO job security with ATT and the Bells. If you get sick and need surgery as I did, too bad, so sad. I worked my ass off at ATT. I was their top sales person in the NCAC division and had more than a hundred letters of commendation from satisfied customers but they let me go one week before my year's anniversay. But hey, while I worked there, I had free legal representation if I wanted a divorce and a $.50 per hour raise every six months but death was not an excused absence. As a matter of fact, it wasn't all that unusual for employees to die at their desk.

  However, my father, a member of the Machinist Union with a well know manufacturer of an everyday product, would sometimes talk about how some of the other workers would not fired because of the strong union. So, your point has validity.

  My attitude is not "I don't have it why should they", my attitude is "I'm a taxpayer and our state is broke". They are employees of the state and the state, as their employer can no longer afford the ridiculous terms that were negotiated by the previous crooks in office. Between pay and benefits, those state and local workers are suitable for WalMart. Maybe. They are lucky the Neotism system has worked so far. Most of them are lazy and not at all happy to help you when you go to their place of work. They don't give you proper information and they don't do their jobs well. Again, in the private sector, they would be immediately fired and a new person put in their place who would try harder and be happy.

  I do not believe the state employees are any lazier or pissier than employees in the private sector. I've met all kinds of folk in the work place. To imply otherwise to me seems very unfair.

  I just want them to paid realistically. Like the rest of America is. Having the local taxpayer fund their pension fund and pay 100% for their insurance is crazy!! The local governments simply cannot afford it.

  But if they were promised these things in lieu of higher wages, don't they deserve what they were promised? The local governments may be broke but it isn't because of the pension and insurance payments of their workers.

  I think my husband is brilliant and he has the sheepskin to back his words up. I believe he had some valuable input and don't think he will mind me quoting him from Sammies' thread: " There seems to be a perception that those who work for the state are not producing anything when in fact they produce roads, hospitals, bridges, and a myriad of other public goods which economic theory pretty clearly shows would not be produced at an optimal quantity by the market due to the fact that they are indivisible in consumption and nonexcludable once produced. The classic example is the lighthouse which by lighting the shore protects all ships and once the shore is lit it is impossible to exclude any ship from its benefit. If you were a private company would you be willing to produce a good for which nobody would be obliged to pay? Now you may argue that goods such as highways and education are not pure public goods but given your background in economics I am sure you recognize the fact that they represent positive externalities, in other words the public benefits from their production and consumption and yet it is private individuals making the decision to consume."