Taking Back the Payment for Sins? (page 3)

ProdigalSon

You are living proof of the power of words. You read a Westcott & Hort scripture that made it appear that Jesus was mocking people for searching the scriptures and bada bing - no more biblical faith. Nice.

Here's what Jesus actually said:

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

Thanks for that Perry, I checked the KJV interlinear, here's the word-for-word:

YE-ARE-SEARCHING the WRITings that you ARE-SEEMING in them LIFE eonian TO-BE-HAVING and those ARE THE ones-witnessING ABOUT ME.

So it appears that the NWT is more accurate here, and it does appear that Jesus was mocking them.

I know a lot of my Christian brothers and sisters disagree with my stand on the Textus Receptus. And, I certainly do not want to make this an issue that divides; but not withstanding I parade before all of you - Prodical Son as Exibit A

LOL, first of all, it's prodiGal, with a g.... second of all, this issue has divided billions, into about 40,000 sects, so good luck with that.

A few of Prodical Son's recent thoughts:

These stories were never meant to be read literally. These gospels with a Jewish guy from 2,000 years ago taking center stage in every single idea,

The Christ is not a man, it is an energy within you that you can access

Therefore, that is what Orthodox Christianity is all about and it is the main reason for what turned out to be the Dark Age of Pisces. It could have been different.

Just as the Christ is within you, so is the Antichrist.

Another victim of the Alexandrian spell.

Would that be similar to, or the same as, the BIBLE spell? Did not your Master say you would do things greater than he? Or is that part of the Bible one you ignore, for the cognitive dissonance that a literal reading ensnares you in?

Now back to the topic.

Just like a True Fundy. Isolate scriptures, ignore the contradictions, and dismiss the apostate... who refuses to worship the Bible... LOL!

Please, go back and read John 17 again, and tell me where this "ME" and "I" fits in if Jesus is talking about himself instead of the Christ that he fully incarnated.

Perry

So it appears that the NWT is more accurate here, and it does appear that Jesus was mocking them.

If you think Jesus was mocking people for reading God's word, have all of that you want. The fact remains that Westcott and Hort, our occult dabbler bible redactors changed that reading from the King James Version and everyone else has followed suit.

BTW, we do not have a King James Interlinear from the time of the compilation of the KJV. So, whatever you are reading is from much later scholars. How do we know that they are not just launching another attack on the traditional reading like W & H?

I personally believe that the King James Version is the very best authority for distilling doctrine in the English language. Others might not agree .... the fruit they produce will tell in time.

ProdigalSon

If you think Jesus was mocking people for reading God's word, have all of that you want.

I don't think he was mocking them for reading the scriptures. He was mocking them for thinking that they would find everlasting life in papyrus and ink, which is exactly what fundies do, except the papyrus is now paper. As a result, they entirely miss the point of what they are reading and the true value of the message, which is a personal one and not a message that some ancient historical figure already did all the work for them that they need to do, if they want to be One with God.

Perry

He was mocking them for thinking that they would find everlasting life in papyrus and ink, which is exactly what fundies do

I attend an official Fundamental Independent Baptist Church. So, I can speak on this with some authority on this. I can assure you that none of the members at my church worship the KJV but only Christ himself.

I believe that Jesus was saying in effect "Go ahead, Search the Scriptures, in them you think there is life. But it is them that speak of me."

One reading mocks the reading of scripture, the other challenges the listener to do just that and find out for himself that Jesus is the author of life.

Totally different. One upholds the value of scripture, the other opens the door to allegory and all sorts of other things if they don't line up with scripture.

ProdigalSon

Perry, I don't have a problem with gleaning wisdom from the Bible. The main problem I have is with thinking that the Bible is the only source of truth and that it can be used to settle all the issues, as if it was a God-breathed Authority. I wasted most of my life thinking that way. It traps you in a mindset where you judge everything and everybody as either living or not living up to a certain standard. It makes it's literal reader a Pharisee.

During the entire Biblical era, allegory and metaphor was the commonly accepted means of relating otherwise impossible-to-put-into-words metaphysical truths. No one ever put a disclaimer on the Bible saying that it was any different. They just knew how to read it.

You might benefit from looking into the writings of some of the early Church fathers. The Homilies and Recognitions of Clement come immediately to mind. You would be surprised at how they believed in things like reincarnation and karma, and a spirit that survives death.

Perry

It traps you in a mindset where you judge everything and everybody as either living or not living up to a certain standard. It makes it's literal reader a Pharisee.

Gods Word liberates, not traps. You are living in an upsidedown world. No one lives up to God's standard. God took 4 thousand years to prove this point. Anyone who thinks that reading the bible will cause them to judge someone as living up to God's standard is deluded.

After a person is born agan, they will naturally in time display the fruit of that new spirit inside. The Pharisees were not born again and thus they killed their own God. They were deluded. "There is no one righteous." Yet, the new age christianity much presented today attempts a pushback at all things traditional, sometimes even including being born again, nullifying, or even negating the NT contract if a person isn't careful.

SweetBabyCheezits

God took 4 thousand years to prove this point.

God needs to attend a time management seminar.

lovelylil

I think both Perry and Prodigal son have made some good points.

Prodigal, thank you for your response. Also you quoted one of my fav scriptures where Jesus shows you must go to him for everlasting life. you are correct many today examine the scriptures dilligently but have no personal relationship with Christ. The JW's surely come to mind. It is not the bible that saves but Christ, correct on that too!

I think Perry is well versed in the bible that is for sure, but he is also in a relationship with Christ which is evident as well in his posts. Sometimes you can have a personal relationship with Christ and zeal for the bible too.

However I would agree that a relationship with Christ is of first importance over scriptural knowledge, and I don't think Perry would argue against this either.

Thank you, both of you, Peace Lilly

Ding

Someone asked me if I could find a reference where the WTS itself actually taught the "take back the ransom" argument.

Although I don't have the publication itself, in his book "Why I Left Jehovah's Witnesses," Ted Dencher gives this quote from the April 15, 1963 Watchtower, p. 237:

"If Jesus were to take back his body of flesh, blood, and bones to heaven and enjoy them there, what would this mean? It would mean that there would be no resurrection from the dead for anybody. Why not? Because Jesus would be taking his sacrifice off God's altar."

By analogy, then, if we are "acquitted of our sins" by our own deaths, wouldn't our experiencing and enjoying the resurrection of our bodies reverse this acquittal?

Taking Back the Payment for Sins?

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