Acts 10:19, 20 - Destroying the Holy Spirit personification argument

by GOrwell 70 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • tec
    tec

    Burns, if the bible clearly taught that Jesus is God, then it wouldn't be debated, and certainly not for two thousand years, and I'm not going to get into another debate about it. That was not my concern. My concern was with your telling those (including me) who believe in Christ and love Him that they cannot be Christian.

    It seems cold and legalistic to me, that these doctrines must be embraced along with love, faith and hope in Christ. May I ask where the faith, love and hope in Christ was when heretics were being burned at the stake, or tortured, etc? Belief in those doctrines did not seem to make a dent in many church leaders from acting in opposition to Christ.

    Tammy

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    That seems cold and legalistic to me, that these doctrines must be embraced along with love, faith and hope in Christ.

    Christ himself denounced false teachings. Was he cold and legalistic, too?

    Paul, James, John and Peter did the same in their letters. Were they cold and legalistic too?

    You say Christians have done bad things. They have. This does not disprove the doctrines of Christianity.

    It is no different in the Bible.

    Does Judas' betrayal disprove Christ?

    Did David's sin prove that YHWH wasn't God?

    Did Peter's denial prove that Jesus wasn't Christ?

    Did the divisions between the Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians in Acts prove Christianity wrong?

    Did the bad kings and priests in the old Testament disprove the God of Israel?

    The prophets wrote about the bad kings and priests of Israel, yet affirmed the truth about God that had been handed down to them from Abraham and Moses.

    Why, if they believed in the God of Israel, did they do bad things? Because they were bad people.

    It is no different different with Christians.

    With that, I have to leave for the time being.

    BTS

  • tec
    tec
    I just think that what you believe about him is not Christian doctrine.

    Yes, this we can agree on, I believe. I, personally, refuse to believe in a doctrine simply because others do and because it has been handed down through an organization or by men. I will put my faith in Christ first and foremost, and pray that He teaches me what to believe and do, and also that I can hear Him when He does so.

    The Muslims do not want to be called Christian or even to be Christian, though some can certainly display Christ-like behavior more than those who purport to follow Christ. The WTS does not follow Christ, and does in fact teach and do in opposition to what Christ did and taught. So I guess my answer would be that deeds show faith. At the same time, I do not know the heart of a man/woman.

    So while someone might at one point do something that is not Christ-like, I have no idea if that person went home and begged forgiveness with tears and humility, begging also to be taught and led into the truth. I have no idea if someone is searching for the truth with all their heart, and if they are accepted by Christ, then who am I to say otherwise?

    Tammy

  • tec
    tec
    Christ himself denounced false teachings. Was he cold and legalistic, too?

    This is not the same thing. We're not talking about denouncing false teachings. We're talking about judging someone not to be a Christian because they did not accept a certain doctrine - even if they have love, faith and hope in Christ. Even if they do what Christ asks of them.

    No one has the monopoly on deciding who is or is not a Christian, except Christ Himself. And God.

    You say Christians have done bad things. They have. This does not disprove the doctrines of Christianity.

    I didn't say it to try and disprove the doctrines of Christianity. I said it to show that it is love for Christ that is more important than embracing any doctrine. That love for Christ is more the mark of a 'Christian' than embracing a doctrine. For example, someone can embrace a doctrine and go out and do those bad things. (as shown from history) But someone who has love for Christ - doctrine or no doctrine - cannot go out and do these things. (though sometimes fear might get in the way, I guess)

    Tammy

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    That God has a Holy Spirit is a given.

    See, I would disagree, dear PSacto (again, peace to you). Here, I would counter that God has holy spirit.

    That Christ has a holy spirit is a given.

    Here, I would counter that Christ also has holy spirit, as well as is THE Holy Spirit.

    The the Holy Spirit is what unites God and Christ in perfect union is, to me, a given also.

    And, pendatic that I am, I would say that love is what unites God and Christ in perfect union... love that is a PRODUCT (fruit) God's holy spirit, which is in both of them... and in us... because it is God's blood, breath, semen, lifeforce, and active force... which is in ALL who have God's holy spirit.

    If people want to see this relationship as a Trinity, I am fine with it.

    Well, I'm not exactly unfine with it; I mean, to each his own. It concerns me a bit that some teach it as a "truth"... when the word denotes three... and there are only two (albeit, the "thing" that DOES have three IS God's holy spirit: "the blood, the water, and the spirit... and these three agree.")

    If people wanna a see it as a Binitarianisim, I am fine with that too. If people wanna see it as Unitarianism, I am fien with that too. Why?

    Because you're sweet, and kind, and loving?

    Because the Word of God is far beyond the understanding of Man and while we can try to graps Him and try to "put his nature into words", that doesn't mean we can.

    Hmmmm. I would disagree here, too, dear one. I would counter with Paul's words, because I have learned them be true:

    "We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written:

    “What no eye has seen,
    what no ear has heard,
    and what no human mind has conceived”—
    the things God has prepared for those who love him

    these are the things God has revealed to us by his spirit. The spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Holy Spirit, comparing spiritual with spiritual. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the spirit.

    The person with the spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, “Who has known the mind of GOD so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ."

    Note, in every instance where the Greek word "spirit" occurs in this passage, NONE are capitalized and only ONE has the word "holy" before it (1 Cor. 2:13).

    The Christ doesn't hide anything from his Body, just as he said. However, he also said that there are things that ONLY the Father knows, that even he doesn't know. Yes? So, while fully understanding God is indeed far beyond the grasp of man, fully understanding Christ, the Holy Spirit... who will lead us into ALL truth... is not.

    Why does it matter? It only matters to ME because, as I've posted before, I vowed... to God, Christ, and myself... to NEVER teach another misleading or lie about them... ever again. To anyone, for any reason. So, I have to go with what I receive FROM Christ, the Holy Spirit, dear one... even if others deem me "foolish".

    Again, the greatest of love and peace to you!

    YOUR servant, sister, and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    None of these things you list are Christian doctrines.

    What is "doctrine," dear BTS (again, peace to you!)? Isn't it "beliefs" taught by a certain religion? And if, say, a minister or priest or elder or pope "teaches" that a congregation should accept/believe a certain thing, doesn't that make it "doctrine"? For millenia, many followed Paul's "doctrine" of "removing" folks from the congregation (and many still do!). Yet, Christ NEVER taught such a thing. But many consider it "christian" doctrine. What about women covering their heads and not teaching in public? And priests, etc., not being able to marry? All of those are "doctrines"... yet, Christ is never recorded to have mentioned a single one of them. What, may I ask, did he say as to homosexuals? All I can find "in the Bible" is him clarifying adultery... yet, forgiving a woman literally caught in the act. Paul said one thing, some in the Corinthian congregation (as well as the Apostles) believed another thing. Who was right? How do you know?

    Christ also is recorded to have said he founded a church,

    Would "build" a temple, yes... and he is. On what, though, did he say he would build it? On Peter... or Peter's grave? Or... on the "rock" that was the FAITH PETER SHOWED WHEN HE DECLARED HIM TO BE THE SON OF GOD? Now, be careful. You might want to take a moment and read the passage before you respond. You might also want to view who Paul said that "rock" was:

    "They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."

    and that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it.

    Nor will it. There will be a resurrection: of the righteous and even of the UNrighteous. So, Sheol/Hades will not prevail against that church, that TEMPLE... because just as he was given authority (the keys to Hades) and so raised up the "temple" that was his own body... Christ... who now has ALL authority... will raise up the FULL temple of God: his Body.

    "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's spirit lives in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16) and...

    "For through him we both (Israel and Gentile) have access to the Father by one spirit. Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined togetherand rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to becomea dwelling in which God lives by his spirit. (Ephesians 2:29-21, and again, note the ONLY word that has the word "holy" before it... is "temple").

    The Apostles wrote that the church was Christ's body. How can you reject the body, and be a Christian?

    The church IS Christ's Body; however, this is not speaking of the Catholic Church... no more than it's speaking of the WTBTS, dear one. I AM the church: a LIVING "stone"... in the temple of JAH. As such, I have a Head... Christ. A teacher... Christ. A leader... Christ. He, the Holy Spirit. From him I received the "promised holy spirit"... the blood, breath, semen, and lifeforce... of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... which was poured out from my Lord's innermost parts upon me. It became IN me fountain... bubbling up... so that I was BAPTIZED with it... and cleansed of my sins. As a result, I have become a NEW creation... one who has been conceived by holy spirit... by the Holy Spirit, who so conceived me, an insignificant seed [of the Woman, my "mother", Jerusalem Above]... and now await my birth... the event in which I will be born... AGAIN... not as a being of flesh, but one of spirit. Whether my flesh dies before that birth (in which case, it will be resurrected and changed to a spirit body)... or is living at the time (in which case, it will be merely be changed and so never die)... is irrelevant. Either way, I will put off corruption (flesh with ITS blood, and thus sin and death IN it)... and put on INcorruption (a spirit body that does not have sin and death in and so will NEVER die... but can only be destroyed by fire).

    The church is not an institution, dear one - it is people: Christ, the Foundation Cornerstone (and thus, the Stone of Stumbling); the Apostles, the Foundation and Gates; the Prophets and Others, the Pillars... and all others, living stones. It is a building/temple which the Most Holy One of Israel will ultimately occupy... and dwell forever in. And that building, because of His occupancy... by means of His SPIRIT... will never be made to totter. It is being "built" by His SON... the Holy One of Israel... who is the HEAD of the Body/Church and the Temple High Priest.

    None of the Christian Scriptures were written to isolated individuals, they were written to the church.

    Ummmmm... really? What about Luke's two accounts? Neither were written for or TO the church... but to Theophilus, who commissioned them. The letters to "Timothy"? One person there, as no one else was named in the greeting of either of these. What about John the Elder's letter to the "chosen lady" and her children? One household, there. How about his letter to Gaius? True, these letters may have been shared with others (or not, but confiscated and used to prove them "christians" and subversives, then later considered useful...). Your statement is inaccurate, dear one, sorry.

    from your own admission, I think you aren't a Christian.

    Well, if your definition of "christian" is one who ascribes to the doctrines of "christianity," you may be right. But that is not the true definition of a "christian," dear one, and I am such by means of the true definition. While I realize that some believe it to mean "follower of Christ" (which is a "disciple", actually)... I have learned, from my Lord, that it means... "anointed/chosen" person. Christ-ian. In that light, I am certain a christian, by means of an anointing with holy spirit. Rather than lead me INTO a religion, however, through that anointing my Lord spoke to me... and led me OUT:

    "The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

    True, my Lord referred to himself as the Gate; however, he also said:

    "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

    Jehovah's Witnesses aren't either, although they use the title.

    Well, now wait... if you can say, with certainty, that THEY aren't (and they say that Catholics aren't)... why can't I say... with the same certainty... that NEITHER are? I mean, I certainly have "authority" to do so, as does any who belong to Christ... because as I posted above, the spirit searches into the deep things of God. Including putting those to the test who call themselves "Jews" (or "Israel" because that IS the Household of God)... but actually aren't.

    Don't get me wrong, you are free to believe whatever you like, but I am free to label those beliefs as Christian or not, too.

    And I take absolutely no issue with you doing so. Again, I am not trying to persuade you as to anything. I am only sharing the truth regarding these matters as I received the FROM the Truth, my Lord, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, who is the Son and Christ of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies. Whether you hear... or refrain. Truly.

    Again, I bid you peace!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ... and not any religious institution (at least, not any longer),

    SA

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Holy Spirit He? Holy Spirit frequently has a female element to balance the masculinity of the Father. Sophia. Wisdom.

    There is too much He when speaking of God. Jesus of Nazareth had a penis. I doubt very much that the Risen Christ has one. God the Father does not equal a human male.

    I am a feminist. Years ago I changed my prayer book so that all references to God were female. I don't believe God is female, either. Praying to a female breaks the bad habit of thnking of God as male. If women had power, God would be considered female in aspect along the lines of Gloria Steinem's If Men Menstruated in Ms. magazine. I prayed "our mother who art...." Over time, it made a big difference. I did this at home. Slowly, I did it more in public. To my surprise, many women came to me and said they were pleased. Some said they wish they could do it.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    AGuest,

    I am new to the forum. Your posts are distinctive to say it diplomatically. Without preaching to me in tons of paragraphs, can you tell me the core of your beliefs? It is very hard to figure out from your posts. Maybe I am opening pandora's box. I am intrigued.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Without preaching to me in tons of paragraphs, can you tell me the core of your beliefs?

    I will try, dear BOTR (peace to you!)... but forgive me if I don't succeed as I am admittedly verbose, sorry. To be precise (even concise), I really would need more information from you; however, to get you started:

    Yes, I believe in God. No, I do not believe in "Jehovah." I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Enoch, Noah, David... and Christ... whose name is JaHVeH. Yes, I believe in Christ. No, I do not believe in "Jesus." I believe in the One who was sent by and thus came in the name of JAH[VeH]... JaH eShua. I believe JaHeShua is Christ, the SON of God and the []glorified] Holy Spirit. No, I do not believe in a three-prong "godhead." No, I do not believe God and Christ are equal, although I do believe that Christ, the Holy One of Israel, is indeed a god and lesser only to the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH... who is the Father and Almighty God/Lord. Christ, is the Mighty.

    I believe that through Christ, God puts His breath, blood, semen... and thus, His lifeforce... in those He chooses to be His sons... by means of an adoption WITH and by means of such breath, blood, semen, water... and lifeforce... which is His spirit and holy, because HE is holy... and thus, is holy spirit. I believe that it is through this spiritual substance that we are joined to God... through Christ... and are one with them both... and that it is this substance that is used by Christ, the Holy Spirit (because he is a spirit and was glorified)... to choose... by means of an anointing WITH such substance... communicate with (because the blood speaks)... and teach those who belong TO him.

    I also believe that it is by means of this blood, breath, semen, water, and lifeforce... that one's have in them LIVING water... which bubbles up IN them to impart everlasting life... which is why it (holy spirit) is called the "oil... of exultation." I believe it is the means that cleanses not only the flesh but the spirit (from its sins), as well as opens the eyes of the blind (which is why it is called "eyesalve")... and sates ALL "thirst" that anyone seeking might have for truth. Because through it and by means of it, one is in union with Christ... which is why the admonition to symbolically drink the wine - it represents his BLOOD, SPIRIT, and WATER... which three "agree" - and so by drinking one is DEMONSTRATING their FAITH in the purification, redeeming, and life-giving qualities OF that blood, spirit, and water.

    I believe that prior to Christ, one could receive such holy spirit directly from God, the Most Holy One of Israel (however, only a limited and "special" few did)... but that once He gave ALL authority to His Son, it is ONLY from that One that it can be received... either directly from him or from someone to whom he has granted some authority... but that ANYONE can now receive it. All they need... is faith... the size of a mustard seed.

    Oh, and I do not believe in religion... or that the Bible is the Word of God, but that that Word... as with almost everything else (including Wisdom, Truth, Life, etc.)... is Christ. So that we don't need men (women) to teach us, but can hear that Word directly ourselves... and by following HIS voice, be led... once and for all... into all truth.

    How's that? Otherwise, which "beliefs", specifically, are you referring to?

    Again, peace to you!

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Semantics...the bane of harmony !!!

    *shoots himself inhead*

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