Acts 10:19, 20 - Destroying the Holy Spirit personification argument

by GOrwell 70 Replies latest watchtower bible

AGuest

May you all have peace!
There is holy spirit... a WHAT... which is a spiritual substance... and the breath, blood, semen, lifeforce, and active force of the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... which is usually manifest in the form of "wind" or "water"... and, on rare occasion, a conception of seed... which has been conferred upon the Son. It is WHAT one is chosen... anointed... WITH.
Genesis 2:7; Matthew 1:18; John 1:33; 4:10, 13, 14; 20:22; Acts 2:4; Acts 19:6
Then, there is the Holy Spirit... a WHO... which is a spirit person... the glorified Son of God, His Word, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... who manifests himself usually by his voice (which is why he is called "the Word")... and on rare occasions in a vision. It is WHO one is chosen... anointed... BY.
John 1:14; 2 Corinthians 3:17; Revelation 19:13; Revelation 1:12-16; John 15:16
The problem is discerning between the two due to the false stylus of the scribes over the millenia... which chose to put capital letters where they often don't belong... or failed to put them where they do... because they relied on their OWN understanding of what both of these are rather than being led BY the second (The Holy Spirit) through the USE of the first (holy spirit). (Note: A look at the Greek writings will show that in GREEK none of these references were capitalized. That some of the Greek is not the original language of the writing makes it even more difficult to discern.)
Like those religions that believe the Holy Spirit is a third entity, the WTBTS is also wrong in their teaching that he is not a Person. He is indeed a Person, the glorified Son... a spirit being who has been deemed holy... thus, the Holy Spirit; however, he is not a third person, but one of TWO: the Holy... which is just outside and adjacent to the MOST Holy. But there is no third person in the Temple sanctuary, dear ones. There is only God, the Most Holy/"inner" sanctuary,and Christ, the Holy/outer sanctuary... who is the Lamb:
"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almightyand theLambare the templeof it."
"Set up the tabernacle according to the plan shown you on the mountain. ...The curtain will separate the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place."
"So Solomon built the temple and completed it. ... He partitioned off twenty cubits at the rear of the temple with cedar boards from floor to ceiling to form within the templean inner sanctuary, the Most Holy Place."
"We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuarybehind the curtain,"
Prior to Christ's sacrifice, only the high priest could enter the inner sanctuary; once he gave his flesh, however, that curtain was removed so that now ANY can enter... but THROUGH him. Although the curtain [that is our flesh] no longer keeps us out, one must STILL go THROUGH the Holy... in order to come into/before the MOST Holy. There is no third, additional entity involved. It is You ----> Christ (the Holy/Door/Narrow Gate)----> God (the Most Holy). Period.
I hope this helps and, again, peace to you all!
Servant to the Household of God Israel... and all those who go with... and a slave of Christ,
SA
BurnTheShips

Wrong. The Holy Spirit is a Person different than the Son. The Son sends him from the Father (He does not say I, He speaks of Another):
"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.
and He is not inanimate.
He snatches away.
And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing.
He bears witness
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
He intercedes on behalf of our weaknesses.
And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words
He grieves as only a person does.
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
He has a mind:
and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
And speaks:
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons
And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’" "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
The Holy Spirit is the Lord:
Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
...of equal divine stature with the Father and the Son.
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."
As I myself pray:
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now
and ever shall be, world without
end.

Amen.
BTS
AGuest

the spirit said: “Look! Three men are seeking you. However, rise, go downstairs and be on your way with them, not doubting at all, because I have dispatched them.”
Which now means there are four spoken of here, dear BTS (peace to you!): the Spirit... and the three men he sent. Because he did not say, "Look, I and two other men are seeking you."
you can see that they all speak as "the Lord".
Per the English translation/transliteration, perhaps, dear PSacto (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!), but not if one were to look at the Hebrew. For the word used to depict the three speaking as one... is the same used to depict one speaking alone: amar. Once again, someone "decided" that the Most Holy One of Israel is a trinity, based on this account, and so manipulated the translations to support this. Here is the thing, however, and someone please enlighten me, if you will be so kind, as it doesn't make sense the way some tend to believe it occurred:
Three "men" appeared to Abraham and ate with him. If we assume it was the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the following questions are raise:
1. If, as dear BroDan suggests, the Father Himself did not appear... it was the Son, the Holy Spirit, and...who??? Even still, one stayed with Abraham while the other two continued to Sodom. So,
2. Who stayed with Abraham? The Father... thus, leaving the Son and Holy Spirit to travel on to Sodom? The Son? Thus, leaving the Father and Holy Spirit to travel on? Or the Holy Spirit, leaving the Father and Son to travel on?
3. If the Father stayed... why would the Son need intervention from Lot against the men who wanted to "attack" them? If the Son stayed, why would the Father need such? If the Holy Spirit stayed... why would either the Father OR the Son need such help?
4. Finally, throughout Genesis 19 the two are referred to an "angels/messengers." Neither the Father nor the Son are angels/messengers. So, who it was that came to Abraham... and who journeyed to Sodom?
I am hoping such questions will give some pause to think... perhaps even ask... so as to receive the accurate answer.
In the meantime I again bid you peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA
PSacramento

And know you guys know why the very nature of God, Christ and the HS has been and always wil be, debated through the ages.
As if we lowly humans can even grasp the nature of GOD.
No harm in trying thoguh ;)
On a serious note though, I just wanted to say that BTS and Shelby are far closer in what they believes than they are "apart", hope you guys realize that.
brotherdan

As if we lowly humans can even grasp the nature of GOD.
Very true. But we can agree on the basics. God is love, sent His Son to earth to pay for our sins, and the Holy Spirit comes to us to teach us all things. I don't understand eternity, but I believe it. I don't understand the Trinity, but I believe that. The nature of God will never fully be grasped. I'm just grateful that he allows me to know Him.
BurnTheShips

Amen, Brotherdan.
BTS
PSacramento

Very true. But we can agree on the basics. God is love, sent His Son to earth to pay for our sins, and the Holy Spirit comes to us to teach us all things. I don't understand eternity, but I believe it. I don't understand the Trinity, but I believe that. The nature of God will never fully be grasped. I'm just grateful that he allows me to know Him.
Well, we can TRY to agree on that basics, LOL !
I do think that EVERY christian will agree that:
God is God.
CHrist is the only begotten SOn of God.
Christ died for our sins as an act of divine reconciliation ( hope I am wording tis right)
The Holy Spirit ( which is both God's Spirit and Christ) is what teaches and directs Us.
I hope that every christian at least agrees on that.
*crosses fingers*
cameo-d

GOrwell: I mean, really, who is the holy spirit being personified here as? Himself? Someone else?
It is peter listening to and following his intuition. The Holy Spirit is within you. We should listen to our intuition for guidance.
brotherdan

Remember that the one requirement is given in 1John 5:1. We must believe that Jesus is the Christ.
But the Bible DOES have a lot to say on the nature of God. And it is our priveledge to search into those deep things. I think the point is not being dogmatic where the scriptures are not clear.
I see Jesus being called "The God" (or Jehovah as the NWT regularly translates the greek) in John 20:28. That is absolutely clear to me. I see the Holy Spirit SPEAKING HIMSELF to people. The scriptures are absolutely clear on that. The Holy Spirit is called "God" in Acts 5:3,4. That is clear.
So there is alot about the nature of God that we get to learn about. But accepting Jesus as Christ and savior is what is vital as 1John brings out.
AGuest

Wrong. The Holy Spirit is a Person different than the Son. The Son sends him from the Father (He does not say I, He speaks of Another): "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.
The Greek word for "Counselor" here, dear BTS (again, peace to you!) is "parakletos." Since we're taking these things from what is written in the Bible, I refer you to both my Lord's words and that of John's:
"The Spirit of the Truth" - "I am the... Truth."
"I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have a parakletos with the Father — [Jesus] Christ, the Righteous One."
However, your own acknowledgement below, that the Lord IS the Spirit, corroborates this. The "Lord" that Paul was speaking of is Christ. There was no other for him.
and He is not inanimate. He snatches away. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing.
I agree! Just as Enoch was taken away by him, yes!
He bears witness The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Yes! He is the one that told me!
He intercedes on behalf of our weaknesses. And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words
Again, he is the parakletos... or advocate/pleader on our behalf with God, yes!
He grieves as only a person does. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
I cannot say that he does so "as only a person does", for animals also grieve. We grieve him, however, by causing him sorrow, yes.
He has a mind: and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Yes... and while we cannot know the mind of God we can know HIS (Christ, the Holy Spirit) mind!
And speaks: But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons
I absolutely concur - I hear him all the time!
And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’" "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
Yes, those who die in Christ and thus become a part of his Body... the enter into the True Sabbath... rest from their works AND their labors... because Christ is LORD... of the Sabbath!
The Holy Spirit is the Lord: Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Yes! As I said, Paul was speaking of Christ - for him, there was no other Lord, dear one! Where the Spirit of Christ is... there is liberty/freedom. Just as Christ is recorded to say:
"You will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free. ... Therefore... IF THE SON SETS YOU FREE... you will truly BE free."
There is no other who can give us freedom, dear one. Only the Son can give us liberty. No other has been given the authority.
...of equal divine stature with the Father and the Son. baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
There was no such verse, dear one. The true rendering is:
"Baptizing them in the name of the Father (JaHVeH)... INTO the Son (into his death and Body)... IN HOLY SPIRIT."
One thing that should help us understand the error perpetuated by your version is that... the Holy Spirit has no "name" in which ones can be baptized into. "The Holy Spirit" is not a name - it is a designation; however, both the Father and the Son have names... names which the Son made manifest to his followers. Another thing would be the words of John the Baptist who said that although he baptized in water, the One coming after him would baptize with fire and holy spirit. That holy spirit... IS water: LIVING "water".
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."
Another inaccurate verse. What the writer was stating was for the COMMUNION... or unity... of holy spirit... which is the BLOOD... which binds us to one another... and God and Christ... and INTERCOURSE... by means of which they know us and we them... remain with us and among us. "Fellowship" is not only misleading, but doesn't begin to cover what is meant... or what occurs. If you notice, however, the writer (Paul?), opened virtually every letter with the words:
"Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (Romans 1:7)
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 1:3)
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 1:2)
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ..." (Galatians 1:3)
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (Ephesians 1:2)
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:2)
To the holy ones and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. (Colossians 1:2)
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. (1 Thessalonians 1:1)
Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Thessalonians 1:2)
Grace , mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. (1 Timothy 1:2)
Grace , mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. (2 Timothy 1:2)
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior. (Titus 1:4)
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)
Although repeated greetings for grace, peace, and mercy through these writers FROM the Father and the SON... not one mention of such "love" from the "Holy Spirit." Why would that be? Because Christ IS the Holy Spirit... and so the greeting was already given. To include "the Holy Spirit" would have been redundant, truly.
As I myself pray: Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now

and ever shall be, world without

end.
Amen.
May I ask... and I mean this in all sincerity and with all due respect: who taught you such prayer... or to pray in that manner? Who gave you those words? Because I have not heard them from my Lord... or read them anywhere, to date. I do give glory to the Father and the Son; however, since the Son is the Holy Spirit, I cannot see where glorifying him as an additional entity is necessary. (My Lord just asked me to ask you: how is it that you would glorify a separate additional entity, when he said of that it itself would glorify HIM?)
Again, I bid you peace!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA

Acts 10:19, 20 - Destroying the Holy Spirit personification argument

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