DON'T SAY THIS WHEN YOU ARE PRAYING!!!!

by brotherdan 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  brotherdan

  I was recently talking with my good friend Ding via pm on JWN, and the subject of legalism in prayer came up. Ding has MUCH experience with Jehovah's Witnesses. He was never one himself, so I get to teach him some things about the organization that he occasionally does not know. He was asking about prayer in the organization.

  I found this quote from a 5/15/86 WT. Notice the lack of freeness of speech that the WT gives you when praying. It says:

  Jehovah’s servants who are truly humble also recognize their position before him. They are a little lower than the angels, while Jehovah is the everlasting, supreme Sovereign of the universe. (Psalm 8:3-5, 9; 90:1-4) When individuals have the opportunity to speak to kings or rulers of this world, they usually do so respectfully and with dignity, highly appreciating the privilege. Should we be less respectful and appreciative when speaking to “the living God and the King to time indefinite”? (Jeremiah 10:10) Of course not. Thus, such expressions as, “Good afternoon, Jehovah” or, “We want to talk to you, Jehovah” are out of place in prayer, as are conversational remarks such as, “How are you today?” “Give our love to Jesus,” or, “Have a nice day.”

  They have to have such control, even in our prayers to God. It made me think of some of the prayers that were recorded in the Bible that the WTS would have trouble with. Notice Moses prayer at Numbers 11:11-15:

  "Why have You been so hard on Your servant? And why have I not found favor in Your sight, that You have laid the burden of all this people on me? Was it I who conceived all this people? Was it I who brought them forth, that You should say to me, 'Carry them in your bosom as a nurse carries a nursing infant, to the land which You swore to their fathers'? Where am I to get meat to give to all this people? For they weep before me, saying, 'Give us meat that we may eat!' I alone am not able to carry all this people, because it is too burdensome for me. So if You are going to deal thus with me, please kill me at once, if I have found favor in Your sight, and do not let me see my wretchedness."

  Can you see the Watchtower condemning Moses for such a prayer? What about some of the prayers of David where he INSTRUCTS God to answer him. What about the prayers when some of the prophets told God that he was turning a blind eye to evil?

  I think they may have been pulled in the back room and talked to if anyone found out about these prayers.
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  brotherdan

  I almost forgot their justification of this. Note the next paragraph:

  Did not the apostle Paul say, though, that we should approach Jehovah “with freeness of speech”? (Hebrews 4:16; compare 1 John 3:21, 22.) Does that not give us the freedom to speak as we see fit? Not really. Paul’s expression referred to the fact that because of Jesus’ sacrifice we can approach Jehovah in spite of our sinful condition. We can approach him in prayer at any time and on any subject. But even while praying with freeness of speech, we must humbly recognize our own insignificance. Thus, Jehovah said: “To this one, then, I shall look, to the one afflicted and contrite in spirit and trembling at my word.”—Isaiah 66:2.
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  elderelite

  well done dan, on the research. I have always laughed at this... and yet new boys at bethel will occasionally make this "mistake" and get chastised for it in front of everyone... If you really want to read a dosey of an explanation, look in the insight book and find the explanation as to the basis Jehovah uses to listen to prayer of those in pre christian times... in other words, if we offer prayers thru christ how did they offer them before he came and died... its interesting to say the least
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  brotherdan

  I think the meaningless and quick way they say "pray in Jesus name amen" like it is one long word is interesting. I've heard people say it is like putting a stamp on a letter. But I don't think that is really the poin that Jesus meant when he said that we must come to the Father through Him.

  That reminds me of an interesting point. How do we go THROUGH Jesus? If I was going to go THROUGH a door, wouldn't I have to go TO the door first? Then I could go through it. But JWs are NOT allowed to speak to Jesus. Although even Stephen and Paul both spoke to the resurrected Jesus, JWs are forbidden. I'd like to see ONE single scripture that tells me that I cannot tell Jesus how much I love Him for what He did for me.
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  miseryloveselders

  Good points fellas. One I wanted to add was related to John 14:14 where Jesus states that if his followers ask of anything in his name, he will do it. He was talking about himself at that point. For some reason though, the WT always used that verse as supporting the need to use Jesus' name "as a stamp" to our prayers to Jehovah. I like that stamp illustration, Dan. Considering that, I've always found it curious to pray in Christ's name even when I'm thanking Jehovah for something random. At that point I'm not asking for anything, I'm thanking God. I've been meaning to do more research on this, but its something that time hasn't permitted, and I keep forgetting to follow up on it. Good thread Dan.
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  brotherdan

  Also, isn't it sad that we are not allowed to express appreciation for Jesus' sacrifice? How could I ever feel close to Jesus? And if we are to honor the Son just as we honor the Father, then wouldn't that include us being able to talk to Him as well? (John 5:23) - that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
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  factfinder

  brotherdan and miseryloveselders- thanks for posting this. I always had trouble with prayers. They always felt so forced and rigid and I felt uncomftable having to always say "in Jesus name I pray"- prayers are so formal and rigid. In Judaism we read them from a prayerbook or chanted them in Hebrew.

  I always felt this rigid pressure when praying. And still do, on the rare occasions I try to pray.
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  brotherdan

  factfinder, you are on a good road. Please PM me when you get a chance.

  Prayer, while being respectful to God, is not a legalistic function. Doesn't God know what is already in your heart? So why would expressing your inmost feelings to him offend Him? If you were to tell God, "I don't understand you, and I don't respect you!" that would be an appropriate prayer. God already knows what you feel. But your expressions to Him show Him that you want to communicate and are willing to humble yourself.

  We all (me included) slack on our prayers sometimes. But God knows what we are going through. He knows the doubts we are having about Him. But He is always there for us when we want to come to Him.
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  factfinder

  brotherdan- you have a pm!

  Yes, god is supposed to already know what is in our hearts. But I do not believe god listens to me, especially with all of the anger I have toward him, which even almost 11 years after my beloved Mom died still remains.
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  Ding

  Factfinder,

  You said you are angry at God.

  Have you been able to express this in prayer?

  Tell God how angry you are with Him and why.

  As Brotherdan pointed out, Moses did.

  So did Jonah.

  Despite the quotes from the WT, the Bible seems clear that God prefers raw honesty to phony piety.

  It's also quite cathartic.