A timely 'booster shot' for JWs

by Gregor 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Vidiot

  NewChapter - "If they can't control their dominant friendly nations, how did I EVER believe they could enforce a world-wide ban on religion---which is just BILLIONS strong?"

  You believed it for the same reason I did - you were taught to. As to where the WTS got the original idea; it actually has its origins in mid-20th Century Right-Wing conspiracy theory; the John Birch Society, etc.

  Because many of the UN Charter's draftees were Europeans with Soviet connections, the American authoritarian Right has always been suspicious of it; with the UN's involvement in establishing the State of Isreal, it took on a Biblical tone (many right-wingers already had affiliations with some of the more militant Christian groups), which led to hack born-again writer Hal Lindsay penning The Late, Great Planet Earth, a quasi-prophetic nonfiction book which predicted a totalitarian "One World Government" evolving out of the UN (suggesting that "godless communists" had helped engineer the UN's creation as tools of the Antichrist in order to destroy decent God-Fearing Americans).

  Back when Millerite-at-heart Fred Franz was fine-tuning the WTS's eschatology, there was a lot more cross-pollinization of ideas between the various apocalyptic millennialist groups; these ideas trickled their way in, and became incorporated (albeit in a modified, JW-centric form) into Freddy's interpretation of the Book of Revelation.

  As a result, the WT is now stuck with an End-Times script containing bad guys who, at present, are essentially powerless (the UN) or remain an unknown (the "King of the North", since the Soviet Union unexpectedly collapsed 20 years ago, and the role has never been recast), and global Black-Swan-type events that seem damn near impossible (organized religion on the verge of violent overthrow by said bad guys) in a world where the democratic process - as flawed as it is - and basic human rights (including freedom of religion) annoyingly persist in spreading despite everyone's best efforts.

  Not to mention that advances in technology and medical science are slowly but surely beating back disease and death by mundane, "real-world" means in this "Wicked System of Things", rather than via miraculous (i.e. supernatural) phenomenon as expected in the WT Paradise.

  In light of this, no wonder the hardliners on the GB are so nostalgic for the 1950s; there isn't really any room for the 21st Century (as it currently exists) in their worldview.
• 

  Gregor

  Those who have been in the org for years and years pick up on the way the Bible prophecy game is played and many of them do freelance speculation. The Watchtower doesn't have to stick their neck out in print that much anymore on specific world events.

  Kind of like playing Dungeons and Dragons?
• 

  NewChapter

  You believed it for the same reason I did - you were taught to. As to where the WTS got the original idea; it actually has its origins in mid-20th

  Century

  Right-Wing conspiracy theory; the John Birch Society, etc.

  Vidiot, I missed this post and just found it. I am disturbed that the society was touched by a political/religious authoritarian movement. It is becoming clearer, for sure, but I've ALWAYS had a certain measure of contempt for this movement. Not for the people, but for the ideas and the way they corrupted the people. To think I was so deeply involved in an org. that was so closely related to that mess, makes me, well, uncomfortable. Even in the org, I tended to be liberal minded. Like the idea that homosexuality was wrong registered, BUT, I never hated homosexuals--I really didn't--I didn't classify that "sin" any higher than any other fornication. In my heart, I don't know if I was ever on board with any of it, but who was I to decide what was right or wrong? That was Eve's mistake.

  Anyway, I am back in classes now, and I have to work hard to keep my scholarship. So, extra reading takes second place. But I intend to finish Conservative w/o conscience, and to read the additional things you recommended. This is really helping me sort things out in my head. I've noticed that some people leave that org only to hook up with another authoritarian group. I've tried to handle that mostly with humor, because there will be no worthwhile debate. I can say I'm glad that I haven't made such a choice and am committed to never letting it happen again.

  Thoughts are just swirling in my brain right now, but you really have given me some helpful insights to clear my thinking. Again, thank you.

  NC
• 

  chickpea

  man oh man

  my deprogramming must be nearly complete

  never ONCE thought of the WTS spew watching
  BBC and the News Hour's coverage of the situation
  in egypt tonight

  bet millions now living are all atwitter that
  it is a sign that the end TM is just around
  that elusive corner!!!
• 

  NewChapter

  chickpea: never ONCE thought of the WTS spew watching BBC and the News Hour's coverage of the situation in egypt tonight

  I know what you mean chickpea. And not only that, I've been able to watch and really appreciate what this means to this old "disposable" world. It actually affects me in a way it never would have affected me before. As a dub, I would have thought that it really wasn't my business, and just a further sign that this system sucks and is dying. Today I look at it, and I am concerned that the violence will escalate, but I'm also awed at the process. I see protesters protecting the museum, I see them doing their best to stay passive in the face of violence. I know there was some violence , but then more came out and tried their best to stay peaceful. I see the military, with all their power, staying cool-headed and doing what they can to protect everyone involved. For the first time, I can admire and say that wicked things happen, but these are not wicked people. It's kind of exciting. And I find myself much more concerned. I know, that either through maniupulation or unknown factors, this situation could turn much more bloody. That would break my heart. As a dub, I would have reasoned that this was the price to getting politically involved. Today, I see it as the price for freedom, but I hope they don't have to pay anymore.
• 

  Vidiot

  NewChapter - "I am disturbed that the society was touched by a political/religious authoritarian movement."

  It's never been actually documented; it's more something I personally deduced after learning about the Christian Right's origins and some of the eerie similarities in their interpretation of Biblical prophecy; it seemed like WT eschatology, but militarized. Once I realized it, I wasn't surprised, though; the WTS has had a history of occasionally playing ball with "worldy" political entities when it suited them; until recently, it simply had more success keeping it on the down-low. In another life, Rutherford would have been as Right-Wing as Father Charles Coughlin.

  Political neutrality was the WTS's official position, but Rutherford was so obviously a hard-core Social Dominator (arguably even a Double-High), that his stance was probably solidified in response to the Nazi movement in Germany pre-WWII. Rutherford had originally extended an olive branch to the Nazi leadership in the form of a somewhat antisemitic letter; my guess is the Nazis percieved (correctly or otherwise) what might otherwise be kindred spirits in Rutherford and his followers, but were smart enough to realize that rather than allowing themselves to be assimilated under the European fascist umbrella, the WTS (as an extremely successful authoritarian group in the US at the time) would, in the end, be in competition with them.

  In addition, polls have pretty clearly and consistantly demonstrated that the vast majority of the JW R&F (in the US, at least), while not actively voting/political, hold personal social and cultural views that identify far more with the Right-Wing than otherwise (with one or two exceptions).

  As the vast majority of authoritarian follower-types con't help but be heirarchal in nature, and thusly naturally tend to defer to some kind of authority figure, I suspect Rutherford (correctly) intuited that political "neutrality", by default, would result in a "vote" for him.

  NewChapter - "Even in the org, I tended to be liberal minded."

  Same here; and I used to tell myself that, at heart, the WTS was really a progressive organization, and that it's positions on evolution, homosexuality,transfusions, etc., would inevitably go the way of the dodo, until I realized that if they did, the WTS would have to literally rewrite huge swaths of their theology; in effect, overhaul the entire religion and start from scratch (as the late GB1.0 member Dan Sydlik allegedly confessed in private once).

  A conservative/authoritarian organization, however, simply cannot do that; it's operational structure is virtually engineered to prevent it from happening. Any substantial progressive reform at this point, and they would arguably no longer be Jehovah's Witnesses.

  NewChapter - "I've noticed that some people leave that org only to hook up with another authoritarian group."

  A few, yeah; they seem to need that kind of structure in their lives. For me, the WTS did such a thorough job discrediting other forms of religious expression, that at this point in my life, I can't see myself joining any religious organization (although when my fade first started, I was leaning a bit towards Unitarian Universalism). My family and I seem to be managing fine without it; in fact, I'm mostly agnostic at this point (and yes, I realize that UU happily accepts agnostics, but the whole "lighting candles and holding hands while singing" is just a bit too ritual-ish for my taste; I find the open-forum philosophical/theological roundtable-type discussion appealling, though).
• 

  NewChapter

  Any substantial progressive reform at this point, and they would arguably no longer be Jehovah's Witnesses.

  No way. No reform. It is impossible. Authoritarian organizations are never wrong, and never apologize. They can find ways to accomodate some changes, (new light) without admitting to being terribly wrong, but that only goes so far.

  I don't know much about rutherford yet. I'm reading a little, but I probably will read much more over spring break.

  On the upside, I'll probably never have to debate much with JW's, since they will soon view me as the devil. On the other hand, I have a lot of jesus camp types in my family, and try as I might, they sometimes snag me into discussion. It is quite a show to watch too. The bubble in which they live is something that should be studied by science. People must have seen me that way too, but from the inside, you feel enlightened and confident. I really am disappointed in myself.
• 

  Vidiot

  NewChapter - "They can find ways to accomodate some changes, (new light) without admitting to being terribly wrong, but that only goes so far."

  Agreed; they may pay lip service to the principle of fallibility, but feel compelled to maintain the illusion of infallibility. It's common to the "strict father" model of parenting.

  I view a social organism's (like the WTS's) tendency towards authoritarianism as an evolutionary adaptation that, while it has historically provided (relatively) short-term advantages, eventually outlives its usefulness, and one way or another, (ironically) facilitates in the extinction of that organism. This happens particularly when the environment of the organism undergoes rapid and radical changes (like the ones ocurring in the Information Age of the 21st Century, for example) that the normally slow pace of adaptation the organism is accustomed to is unable (or in the case of the WTS, arguably unwilling) to accomodate.

  PS: I edited my previous post to add some stuff I thought was relevent.
• 

  wobble

  My Uber-Dub sister said to me the other day "There certainly is an "agitating of the Sea" in Egypt at the moment "

  This is typical of the kind of stupid comment she will throw at me despite my having made plain that the Bible has no place in my life as anything more than a piece of poorly written fiction, especially John Magic-Mushroom's "Revelation".

  It is interesting though, as an insight into Culty Dub thinking, anything that happens around the World, good or bad, but preferably bad, is latched on to to try to say that things are moving along as the WT has predicted.

  Good luck with that sis, they aint never been right, and you will not live to see a New System.

  Shame really, she has wasted most of six decades working for nothing, for a New York publishing company posing as a religion, and she will spend her twilight years doing the same.
• 

  NewChapter

  (although when my fade first started, I was leaning a bit towards Unitarian Universalism).

  Yeah, I don't see myself needing religion anymore, as I consider myself atheist, but am willing to relabel that agnositc when I settle down. Maybe. Or maybe not. But if I felt the need, for social reasons, I'd go with the hippy religion. LOL It would be my first choice. When I was still JW, I needed to reach out for extra support, and ended up in a meeting in a UU church. I remember feeling creeped out, well, you know why. But at least there would not be any rules, and no thought police. That is a livable situation. I do miss the social aspect--NOT THE MEETINGS--but the knowledge that I could pick up my phone and find someone to talk to, or someone to go shopping with.

  But I'm making new friends, and meeting a lot of intelligent people. I'll adjust. I know JW's would expect anyone in my position to crash and burn. When I don't, I hope that that in itself could be a "witness" to them, to show them that it is not scary outside the bubble. It can actually be quite fullfilling. Because I'm pragmatic, I know that most will not interpret what they see as me being happy, but there may be just one person who is looking around. If they are there, I am here for them.

  I have to giggle. It's Saturday morning, and I'm worried about unexpected visitors! Since I only faded, there is always the danger of an encouraging visit. Eeks. I better hide Crisis of Conscience. LOL Which I shouldn't be reading anyway, because I'm behind on my Political Science reading. Dear oh dear. At least I've been practicing intense reading for the last 20 years---I'm sure that helps.