Holy Spirit - Electrical-like force? Or a person?

brotherdan

One thing that strikes me when reading through the NT is that it seems impossible to view the Holy Spirit as merely a force. The JW teaching is that it is sort of like God's magic. It causes things to happen. But when I read through the Bible, I get a very different picture of the Holy Spirit.

So I thought I'd make a comparison list of the WT teaching vs what I see the Bible teaching.

Watchtower: The holy spirit is not a person (note the lowercase letters)

The Bible: The Holy Spirit displays attributes that can only belong to a person with a personality. He has a mind (1 Cor 2:10) feels emotions (Eph 4:30) and has a will (1 Cor 12:11). He does things that only a person can do like pray (Romans 8:26) and speaking to people (John 15:26)

Watchtower: Because the holy spirit does not have a name, "it" is not a person.

The Bible: Literal Spirit beings are not always named in the Scriptures. In many cases they are identified by their character. Demons are called "wicked" or "unclean" spirits. In the same way, the Holy Spirit is identified by His holy character (John 16:7-14)

Watchtower: The Bible says that we must be "filled" with the holy spirit. This proves that the spirit is not a person.

The Bible: Eph 3:19 speaks of us being filled with God Himself. Obviously God is a person. Eph 4:10 also speaks of Christ filling all things. Obviously Christ too is a person. So is the Holy Spirit.

Watchtower: The Holy Spirit is never spoken of as being God, but instead is only God's impersonal "active force" for accomplishing His will in the world.

The Bible: The Holy Spirit is spoken of in the same terms as God is. He is called God in Acts 5:3,4. He also has all the attributes that God has. He is omnipresent (Psalm 139:7), omniscient (1Cor 2:10), and omnipotent (Romans 15:19)

In conclusion the Holy Spirit's own works confirm that He is a person. He teaches believers (Romans 8:14), He testifies (John 15:26), He guides believers (Romans 8:14), He commissions people to service (Acts 13:4), He issues commands (Acts 8:29), He restrains sin (Genesis 6:3), He prays for people (Romans 8:26), and He speaks to people (2 Peter 1:21). He can be grieved, blasphemed, lied to, obeyed, and sent. These terms would not be appropriate to apply to a mere force.

Maybe the most damning to the Watchtower (IMO) is that if the Holy Spirit is a force, as the WT argues, then why does the Holy Spirit use the personal pronouns "Me" and "I" in reference to Himself (Acts 13:2)?

james_woods

Not that I believe it myself, but Ed Dunlap hypothesized (late in his life) that maybe the scriptures were simply speaking of the same individual (God) by the three terms - Christ, God, HS.

NOT that they were three individuals in one - just three names for (aspects of) one individual.

Ed thought that perhaps this was to better describe God than the Hebrew scriptures' simple jealous War-Jehovah.

Note that he never directly said he believed this for sure - he just said it as an hypothesis.

I have moved on religiously to the point that I no longer wonder about it - but the view was interesting to me from an ex-JW who was a very serious bible student.

brotherdan

Yeah, I too have great respect for Ed Dunlap. I don't think he got far enough in his studies, but that's just my opinion. Where I am at right now is that I see the OT refer to YHWH yet speaking about Jesus. And in other places I see it speaking of the Father. I don't think they are the same person either. I think that name can be applied to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But of course that is a matter of debate among many on JWN.

james_woods

I think that one of the things that Ed was struggling with (on this topic) was his view that the witnesses actually base their view of Jesus on basically lthe Arian gnostic view - that he was really (on Earth) just a man, admittedly an Angel before and after earth, but NOT God or God-like. That would prevent JW doctrine from being conventionally CHRISTIAN. They certainly are far more obsessed with the OT Jehovah than with Christ.

Ed thought that while the witnesses view the Arian view as right and the Athanasian view as wrong - that perhaps both were partly right and partly wrong, and both were partly political within the church of the day. It was sort of as if the witnesses rejected the "Trinity" but did not think through what they were replacing it with.

One of his favorite sayings on the subject was: What more can we know about Jehovah than what the New Testament tells us about Jesus?

His brother Marion and I often talked about this after Ed had died years earlier, and the above is what Marion views Ed's final position to be.

PSacramento

Ed seems like a man od deep thought, probably would have made a great philosopher.

In regards to the HS, the HS is the spirit of God and as such, it has all the qualities of God, the HS is also the Spirit of Christ or perhaps better put, Christ IS the HS of God.

The HS is the guiding force for all believers, it guides us and teach us, never controlling but always loving and giving.

Jesus was clear that the HS would be the teacher for all his disciples after he had acended to The Father, how can a "force" do that?

leavingwt

"When the spirit is high and you know you are fit to handle it, then let loose, and let God have his way."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fqNxBtr97c&feature=related

james_woods

Ed seems like a man of deep thought, probably would have made a great philosopher.

He really was - and also was a very kind and unassuming person - just like Ray Franz describes him in CoC.

I still miss Ed and his brother Marion very much.

Ding

The idea of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being different names for the same individual doesn't accord with scripture.

Jesus prayed to the Father (Luke 23:34) and said that the Father sent him (John 5:36).

Jesus said that after he left he would send the Holy Spirit to teach the disciples (John 15:26).

The Bible also says that the Father spoke from heaven and the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus at his baptism (Matthew 3:16)

james_woods

Well, Ding - it was not my idea. I am just reporting on some hypothetical thinking that I was told.

Ed's theory was that a God-like Christ could have certainly accomplished what you quoted from the scriptures, and that the prayers he made to God were examples of how to pray for his followers.

My own further thinking on subjects like this convinced me that I cannot prove a thing about any of it and effectively leaves me as an agnostic.

brotherdan

Ding, that's why I made the comment that I personally don't feel like Ed went far enough in his studies. He definitely saw the error in the teaching that Jehovah's Witnesses hold to. But he didn't get things quite right either. It almost sounds like he leaned a bit towards modalism.

Holy Spirit - Electrical-like force? Or a person?

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