What is the Trinity?

by pirata 42 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • WontLeave
    WontLeave

    So why is Jesus called the firstborn over all creation? Because he was the first thing created? No. Because he is pre-eminent over all creation

    First, using the translations that say "over" rather than "of" doesn't let the Trinity off the hook, because nearly every version renders Rev 3:14 to indicate Jesus is the "beginning of the creation of God" or words to that effect. Sure, there are mental gymnastics and "debates about words" on this subject too, but if you have stop every few minutes and explain away what the Bible says, maybe it's time to rethink the theory rather than the Bible. This argument is nothing new and only addresses the "firstborn" aspect of that phrase. Even if it means "preeminent", it doesn't deny he is "of creation". You can read all about Jesus' creation in Prov 8.

    Jesus is the "last Adam". If you feel that Adam is equal to - part of, an incarnate version of, whatever your particular take is - God, then you might be able to weasel out a case for Jesus to be, too.

    Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. - Thomas Jefferson

  • Ding
    Ding

    Proverbs 8 doesn't refer to Christ at all.

    It's a personification of wisdom, spoken of in the female gender.

    Also, the word translated "beginning" in Rev. 3:14 means "source" or "origin," the one who began it.

    As I recall, ridicule was one of the favorite forms of argumentation of Judge Rutherford.

    Not everyone finds the trinity concept unintelligible, Thomas Jefferson to the contrary notwithstanding.

  • GOrwell
    GOrwell

    Sorry Chalam, yes, that's the scripture I meant..

  • TheLoveDoctor
    TheLoveDoctor

    and then we have Me, Myself, and I

  • Ding
    Ding

    GOrwell,

    I don't know if the Greek word for firstborn (prototokos) can EVER be used to mean first one created, but there is a separate Greek word with that definition -- protoktiseos -- and Paul doesn't use it.

    Notice the context of Colossians 1:15-17: Christ existed before all things and all things were made not only by him but FOR him. The WT felt the need to add "[other]" four times in the NWT rendering of this passage because they didn't like the implications. However, notice also John 1:3 which says that Christ created all things and that nothing that was created was created except by Jesus. So how could Jesus be a creation?

    Notice also that in Colossians 1:18, Jesus is also called "firstborn from the dead." Same Greek word -- prototokos. But he wasn't the first one chronologically raised from the dead. Jesus himself raised Lazarus (John 11:43), the widow of Nain's son (Luke 7:11-15), and the daughter of a synagogue ruler (Mark 5:38-42). But Jesus WAS the pre-eminent one to rise from the dead, another indication in the same passage that prototokos means pre-eminent, not "first one chronologically."

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Colossians 1:15

    Jesus is called the "first-born of all creation. For in Him were all things created . . . He is before all and by Him all things were created." JWs think this means Jesus is the first created being. "First-born" here does not refer to time, but to preeminence. It is a title given by a father to his son. Isaac, Jacob and Ephraim received the blessing of the "first-born," though they were not biologically the first sons born to their parents. The text doesn't say Jesus was created. If so, St. Paul would have said Jesus created all other things, but he did not. Jesus is the Creator of all things. He is God. He is given the title "first-born" as the title of His preeminence and because He is eternally begotten by the Father. Ask the JWs if they agree that Colossians 1:15-17 means that Christ created everything. They'll say yes. Then show them Isaiah 44:24: "This is what the Lord says, your Redeemer who formed you in the womb: 'I am the Lord, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself.'" Ask them why, if Christ created "all things," it says that the Lord God - the Hebrew word used here is Yahweh (Jehovah) - did it by Himself.

    In the NWT it says, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” The Witnesses interpret this statement to mean that Jesus was the first thing that God created. This is a good example of how easy it is to misunderstand the key words that are used in the Bible, and Jehovah’s Witnesses are doing just that. The key word in this case is “firstborn.” The Witnesses are assuming that the word “firstborn” is equal to “first created.” The word “firstborn” DOES NOT mean “first created”; they are two different words. There is a Greek word for “firstborn” and there is a Greek word for “first created.” The Apostle Paul, who was writing under inspiration, could have used the word for “first created” if he had wished to do so, but he chose to use the word “firstborn.”.

    So what does the expression “firstborn” really mean? In Scripture it refers to the first child to be born in the family (see Luke 2:7). There is also another meaning for “firstborn,” namely “primacy,” or “pre-eminence.” The word “primacy” comes from the word “prime,” which means “first.” Please note it doesn’t mean first in time; it means, rather, first in position. For example, in Britain today there is a Prime Minister. Britain’s Prime Minister is not that country’s “First”-ever Minister, but its chief Minister, the one who has the position of primacy over all other ministers in the British Government. That is the sense in which “firstborn” is being used in Colossians 1:15. A good cross reference to use for this is Psalm 89:20, 27. Verse 27 is talking about King David. God says, “I myself shall place him as firstborn, the most high of the kings of the earth.” Notice that God is going to place David as firstborn. Anybody who knows the background of King David knows that he was the eighth son of Jesse (1 Samuel 16:9–13). Yet God says that He is going to make David, the eighth-born, His firstborn. How does He do it? Verse 27 says, “I will make him the most high of the kings of the earth.” David will have the primacy as one over all the kings of the earth. This same use of the word “firstborn” can be applied to Jesus in Colossians 1:15, thus Jesus is not the first created, but the chief over all. He has the position of primacy, or leadership, over all creation.

    I think it is worthwhile to include an additional point of information on this passage at Colossians 1:15–16. Please compare it with the NWT given below:

    “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.”

    The New World Translation introduced an extra word into the text, the word “other,” which completely alters the force and meaning of that verse. It allows the Witnesses to claim that Jesus could be created and then He Himself proceed to create “other” things.

    Is the word “other” in the Greek text? The answer is emphatically NO! Other translations, however, read, “For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities, all things have been created by Him and for Him.” (NASB) When you look at that verse you will see that Christ is being referred to as the creator of everything; nothing is left out. He created all things, regardless of whether they were things in the heavens or the things on the earth, whether they were visible things or invisible things. If Jesus created each and every one of them, then we have proved that Christ could not have had a beginning. He Himself is not a created thing, but He is author of all creation.

    The special Watchtower New Testament known as The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures contains a copy of the Greek text. It’s a good idea to get the Witnesses to show you that translation and then ask them to turn to Colossians 1:16 and look at the Greek text, with the literal English words underneath. Let them see for themselves that the New World Translation committee has added the word “other” to their translation. It is also a good idea to cross reference this verse with John 1:3. So if the Witnesses insist that the word “other” must appear in Colossians 1:16, then that verse contradicts what it says in their own Bible at John 1:3!

    The Greek for "firstborn" is prototokos (Strong's word #4416), which means "preeminence" and "eternal preexistence," according to Greek lexicons. It does not mean "first-created." Apart from being untrue linguistically, this heretical interpretation is contradicted in the next two verses, which inform us that Christ "created all things," and that He "is before all things." JWs try to escape that clear indication by adding the qualifying word, "other" -- but (unfortunately for them) "other" is not in the Greek text. The Hebrew usage of "firstborn" is also instructive, since it illustrates its meaning as "preeminent." David is called "firstborn" in Ps 89:27, not because he was the literal first child of Jesse (for he was the youngest), but in the sense of his ascendancy to the kingship of Israel. The Watchtower understands this with regard to that verse:

    "David, who was the youngest son of Jesses, was called by Jehovah the "first-born," due to Jehovah’s elevation of David to the preminent position in God's chosen nation." (Aid to Bible Understanding, 1971, 584)

    Likewise, Jeremiah 31:9 refers to Ephraim as the firstborn, whereas Manasseh was the first child born (Gen 41:50-52). The nation Israel is called "my firstborn" by God (Ex 4:22). The Jewish rabbinical writers even called God the Father Bekorah Shelolam, meaning "firstborn of all creation," that is, the Creator. This is precisely how St. Paul uses the "firstborn" phraseology in Col 1:15. The Greek word for "first-created" is protoktistos. But Paul uses prototokos, which Vine defines as follows:

    ". . . expressing his priority to, and preeminence over, creation . . . He himself produced creation." (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell, 1940; under "Firstborn")

    And A.T. Robertson states: The use of this word does not show what Arius argued, that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like "all creation" . . . Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikon (Image) and to the universe as prototokos (First-born). (Word Pictures in the NT, Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1932, vol. 4 of 6, 477-478)

    Greek scholar Marvin Vincent also concurs: "First-born" points to eternal preexistence . . . We must carefully avoid any suggestion that Christ was the first of created things, which is contradicted by the following words: "in Him were all things created." (Word Studies in the NT, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1946; orig. 1887; vol. 3 of 4, 468)

    If JWs attempt to argue that image (Greek, eikon, Strong's word #1504), "proves" that Jesus is lesser than God, they will again find themselves at odds with all Greek lexicons and dictionaries. For example, W.E. Vine:

    Christ is the visible representation and manifestation of God to created beings; the likeness expressed in this manifestation is involved in the essential relations in the Godhead . . . "he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father," John 14:9. (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell, 1940; under "Image")

    The unbiblical JW doctrine of Jesus as "Chief Agent" of all creation (rather than co-creator with the Father and Spirit), is rendered null and void by three verses:

    • ISAIAH 44:24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I {am} the Lord that maketh all {things}; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; (NWT: "I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?")
    • MALACHI 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? . . . (NWT: "is it not one God that has created us?")
    • JOB 9:2,8 . . . how should man be just with God? . . . Which alone spreadeth out the heavens . . . (NWT: "stretching out the heavens by himself")

    Read more:

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Revelation 3:14

    Here the NWT reads, “And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God...” Jehovah’s Witnesses will interpret this statement to mean that Jesus was the first thing that God created. This again is a clear example of the Witnesses misunderstanding the meaning of Bible words. They look at the word “beginning” in that verse, and assume that it means the first part of something or the start of something, As for example, if I say to you, “I am going to Los Angeles at the beginning of next week,” you will automatically assume that I am going at the first part of the week. But the beginning in the Bible has another meaning as well. It means the source or the origin of something. So, in Revelation 3:14, Jesus is the source of God’s creation.

    The Apostle John, when using the Greek word for “beginning” ( αρχη ), always uses it in the same way in the book of Revelation. For example, as a cross reference you can use Revelation 21:5–7, which, according to the NWT reads:

    “And the One seated on the throne said, ‘Look! I am making all things new.’ Also, he says: ‘Write, because these words are faithful and true.’ And he said to me: ‘They have come to pass! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free. Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son...’”

    When you read that passage with a Witness, ask him, “Who is the Alpha and the Omega?” He will reply, “Jehovah God Almighty.” Now point out that Jehovah tells us He is the beginning. In what sense is Jehovah or Almighty God the “beginning” of anything? Is He the first part of His own creation? Obviously not, but He is the origin, or source, of His creation.

    In the Foreword of the Kingdom Interlinear Translation (1969, 10), it is stated, "To each major word we have assigned one meaning." Let's trace, then, the Greek word for beginning, arche (Strong's word #746). We find that in Rev 21:6 Jehovah calls Himself the "beginning [arche] and the end." So if Jesus is a created being because of arche, Jehovah must be, too, since the description is applied to both. The Greek scholars are unanimous in their interpretation of arche and this verse: one of the very favorites of JWs. Abbot Smith's Manual Greek Lexicon (p. 62) defines the word as, "uncreated principle, the active cause of creation, Rev. 3:14." Joseph Thayer, in his Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (p. 77) gives as its meaning, "origin, active cause," as does Vine (under, "Beginning"), Liddell and Scott (p. 121), and Bauer, Arndt, & Gingrich (pp. 111-112). A.T. Robertson states:

    "Not the first of creatures as the Arians held . . . but the originating source of creation." (Word Pictures in the NT, Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1932, vol. 6 of 6, 321)

    We even get our word, architect from arche, which makes its meaning clear. At least 20 English translations use an unambiguous terminology which brings out the specific meaning of Rev 3:14:

    • Williams, Beck, Goodspeed, Moffatt, NRSV: origin of God's creation
    • Knox: the source from which God's creation began
    • NAB, REB, CEV: the source of God's creation
    • Wuest: the originating source of the creation of God
    • Living Bible: the primeval source of God's creation
    • Jerusalem : the ultimate source of God's creation
    • NEB :the prime source of all God's creation
    • Barclay: the moving cause of God's creation
    • Amplified: the Origin and Beginning and Author of God's creation
    • TEV: The origin of all that God has created
    • NIV: the ruler of God's creation
    • Weymouth : the Beginning and Lord of God's creation
    • Jay Green Interlinear: the Head of the creation of God
    • Basic English: the head of God's new order
    • MLB (in notes): he was the source of creation

    Jesus, here as elsewhere, is revealed as Creator in Scripture, not as a creature. Otherwise, the verses about creation become nonsensical.

    http://www.forananswer.org/Rev/Rv3_14.htm

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    What is funny is that I too thought that the trinity was overly complicated and that anything we believe should be simple and easy to explain. I never realized that the Trinity IS easy to explain and makes perfect sense (at least to one that has not given up on the Bible).

    But there ARE some concepts that are difficult, and yet we hold them to be true. Take for example eternity. Explain it. Explain how someone could not have a beginning. What did God do before he created time or the universe? What about before that? And before that? He was there for eternity. It's impossible to wrap your head around it.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    PROVERBS 8:12, 22-23

    “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence....The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way....From everlasting I was established....”

    The Society’s New World Translation translates Proverbs 8:22 as “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way.…” They use these verses in Proverbs 8 attempting to prove that Jesus was created and thus has not always existed. Although the Society admits that these verses in context are speaking of wisdom personified, they claim that this passage is “actually a figure of speech for Jesus as a spirit creature prior to his human existence.”—Should You Believe in the Trinity?, p. 14

    If the “wisdom” in Proverbs 8 is actually referring to Jesus, who is the “prudence” that Jesus (as wisdom) dwells with? If wisdom had to be created (was “produced”), are we to conclude that God had no wisdom until a certain time when He created it? It is obvious that God wouldn’t be God if there was a time when He was without wisdom. Therefore, we must recognize that wisdom is just as eternal as God is. In fact, the same Hebrew word translated “everlasting” or “time indefinite” (owlam) which is used to express God’s eternal nature at Psalm 90:2 is used to express the eternal nature of wisdom at Proverbs 8:23. The New American Translation better translates these passages as it states that God “possessed” wisdom, rather than “produced” wisdom. These passages reveal how God brought forth wisdom to take part in His creation.

    PROVERBS 8:22-23

    PSALM 90:2

    “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. From everlasting [owlam] I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.”

    “…Even from everlasting [owlam] to everlasting, Thou art God.”

    At Proverbs 1:20-21, wisdom is personified as a woman who cries in the streets. As is seen by examining the context, there is no indication in this passage that the wisdom which is being discussed in Proverbs 1-9 is to be associated with Christ. Nevertheless, even if one takes the position that the Watchtower Society maintains (that this wisdom is referring to Christ), one would have to come to the conclusion that Jesus is just as eternal as God is, since it is obvious that wisdom could not have been created. Proverbs 8:22-23 cannot be used to prove that Jesus is a created being. In fact, quite the opposite is true, for by utilizing the Society’s position, one can argue for the eternal nature of Christ from these passages!

    You will notice that in most translations verse 22 says, “The Lord Himself possessed me...” However, in the New World Translation this verse reads, “Jehovah himself produced me...” Producing suggests the idea of bringing something into existence or starting something. Starting what, though? In Proverbs 8, God’s wisdom is described. But isn’t God’s wisdom eternal and uncreated? If God is eternal, then surely His attribute of divine wisdom is eternal. There could never have been a time when God was without wisdom. So “possessed” is a more accurate translation than “produced.”

    Jehovah’s Witnesses point out that Proverbs 8 personifies wisdom, and they assume that the Scripture must be describing Jesus in His pre-human state. However, this is an unproven assumption. Having mistranslated verse 22, they go on to emphasize verse 30, where wisdom speaks: “...And then I came to be beside him [that is, beside Jehovah] as a master worker, and I came to be the one that he was fond of.” So they create the idea of Jesus under the figure of wisdom, being brought into existence as the first of Jehovah’s creative work, and then walking alongside His Father like a master worker.

    The important thing to do here is to bring their attention to what it says in Proverbs 8:1–2: “Does not wisdom call out and discernment lift up her voice? On the top of the heights by the way she has stationed herself.” Although wisdom is personified, it is in the feminine gender; wisdom here is pictured as a woman. The same thing occurs in Proverbs 9:1: “True wisdom has built her house, she has hewn out her seven pillars.” I suggest to you that the Lord Jesus, the Son of God, *is not going to be typified or represented in the Old Testament under the figure of a woman. Most likely the writer of Proverbs was using figurative language, describing God’s attribute of wisdom in the form of a “handmaid” to the Lord, ever present to carry out His will.

    This use of the feminine gender was such an irritant to the New World Translation committee that they changed it! Their Bible at Proverbs 8:1–2 reads, “Does not wisdom keep calling out and discernment keep giving forth its voice? On top of the heights by the crossing of the roadways it has stationed itself.” They eliminated the feminine gender and replaced it with the neuter gender. So wisdom is no longer personified as a woman: Interestingly, the Jehovah’s Witness leaders themselves have admitted that the original Hebrew is in the feminine gender. In their book entitled God’s Eternal Purpose Now Triumphing for Man’s Good, page 28 we read,

    “Our thinking here reminds us of what is said in the 8 th chapter of the Book of Proverbs, where divine wisdom is depicted as a person who talks about himself. Of course in the original Hebrew text of Proverbs, the word wisdom is in the feminine and speaks of itself as a female person. Divine wisdom does not have any separate existence apart from God. Wisdom always existed in Him, and so was not created. For this reason it is interesting to hear how wisdom speaks of herself as a feminine person.”

    So there, without any real explanation of why they did so, they have admitted that they have changed that portion of Scripture from feminine to neuter without any satisfactory reason for doing so. It should be mentioned that Hebrew has only masculine and feminine genders. So feminine nouns would, at times, be given neuter pronouns by the translators. However, Proverbs 7:4–5 indicates clearly that the writer of Proverbs intended Wisdom to be presented as a woman.

    The Witnesses' New World Translation renders verse 22 to say, "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago," and JWs interpret this as applying to the prehuman Jesus Christ--proof that he is not God but was "produced" or created by God as the first angel.

    However, the "me" who is speaking throughout Proverbs 8:1 through 9:12 is identified as "wisdom," and many other translations reflect the fact that feminine pronouns are used. Wisdom raises her voice in 8:1; she takes her stand in 8:2; she cries out in 8:3; wisdom has built her house in 9:1; she has prepared her table in 9:2--hardly the language one would expect if Jesus Christ were meant. (King James Version, Revised Standard Version, Jerusalem Bible, Modern Language Bible, The Living Bible, A Literal Translation of the Bible in the Pocket Interlinear Old Testament)

    Besides, the best translations agree with the King James Version in saying that God "possessed" wisdom from the beginning. In fact, it is illogical to say that God produced or created it, since this would imply a time prior to that when the Almighty lacked wisdom.

    The reply is so simple it can easily be overlooked. If Jesus was not eternal, then neither would God's power and wisdom be eternal. Note, however, that the next verse in the NWT has "wisdom" saying: "From time indefinite I was installed . . . " (KJV, NASB: everlasting). The Hebrew word here is olam (Strong's word #5769), which Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon of the OT defiones as "time before the creation of the world (i.e., eternity), Prov 8:23." This word is used in describing Jesus at Micah 5:2, the well-known messianic prophecy regarding His birth, but most importantly, it is used in the most explicit way in describing God the Father's ("Jehovah's") eternity, in verses such as Psalms 41:13, 90:2, 93:2, 106:48, Isaiah 40:28 (all, time indefinite in the NWT). If the word means "eternal and uncreated" when applied to Jehovah, then it must mean the same when applied to Jesus.

    That is assuming, however, that "wisdom" in Proverbs 8 is referring to Jesus in the first place. I would argue that it is an example of the poetic devise of personification of an abstract, non-personal concept (common in Hebrew poetry). This is easily shown by the reference to wisdom as "it" in 8:1-3 of the NWT (most translations use she). In Proverbs 9:1-4, the NWT refers to "wisdom" as "it" and then "she"; Proverbs 1:20-2:11 uses "it" in the same way. JWs do not deny the maleness of personhood of Jesus, so this "proof" is demolished.

    The Watchtower actually agrees with this interpretation in one place, while asserting the proof text against Jesus in others:

    ". . . it is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36); and the feminine pronominal forms are used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations . . . Wisdom is also personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35." (Insight on the Scriptures, 1988, vol. 2, 1019)

    Unfortunately, once again, even though the Watchtower stumbled upon a truth here, they use it to support a falsehood. The above citation occurred in the article on "Spirit" -- with regard to the personal attributes so often used to describe the Holy Spirit in the Bible. It is stated that these are merely instances of personification, so that the Holy Spirit need not be regarded as a Divine Person (as in orthodox Christian trinitarian theology).

    Proverbs 8, Personification, and Christ

    Because some readers understand the Old Testament's Lady Wisdom as a type and shadow of Christ (in spite of her erroneous gender), the Jehovah's Witnesses hope, if they can get at her, they can get to Jesus Christ.

    Some modern translations render 'qanah' as 'created': "The LORD created me at the beginning of his work..." (NRSV). But the word literally means 'purchase', thus by implication to possess. 'Qanah' is not translated 'created' even once in the determinedly literal KJV: [07069] qanah: AV - Buy 46, get 15, purchased 5, buyer 3, possessor 3, possessed 2, owner 1, recover 1, redeemed 1, misc 7; 84

    If 'qanah' = 'create,' then did the poor man create his little lamb?: "But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought [qanah] and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter." (2 Samuel 12:3). The poor man did not create the little lamb, rather he owned it.

    Or do we ourselves possess the ability to 'create' wisdom? Yet we are commanded in the Bible to "get" [qanah] wisdom: "Get [qanah] wisdom, get [qanah] understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth." (Proverbs 4:5).

    Paul himself suggests Lady Wisdom as a type of Christ: "For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." (1 Corinthians 1:22-24). Many of the early Christian writers adopt this identification.

    The Septuagint translates the 'qanah' of Proverbs 8:22 with 'ktizo,' which the seventy also sometimes use as a translation for the Hebrew 'bara,' 'create.' Many of the early church writers quote this verse from the Septuagint. The Greek word 'ktizo' can also mean 'found, ordain, or establish.' It's used, for example, of the founding of a city: "of a city, to found, plant, build, Od., Hdt." (Liddell and Scott, Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon.) It can also mean 'made.' Though in the NT 'ktizo' and related words usually refer to creation, the meaning of 'ordain' is still Biblical: "Submit yourselves to every ordinance ['ktisis'] of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;..." (1 Peter 2:13). Do the early church writers who quote this passage from the Septuagint understand it to mean that the Son, whom they identify with Wisdom, was 'created,' that is to say brought into being from non-being? Or do they understand it to mean He was ordained the beginning ('arche,' origin or principle) of creation, as Brenton translates it: "The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works. He established me before time was in the beginning, before he made the earth:..." (Brenton Septuagint, Proverbs 8:22-23). Given what these writers say about the eternity of the Son, I would think the latter.

    It is possible that the Septuagint translators used this word because they perceived a relationship between it and 'ktaomai,' meaning, 'acquire.' The English word 'create' can also potentially mean 'ordain,' though its more familiar use is to bring into being: "create...To originate or cause; to bring into being; to cause to exist; to make or form, by investing with a new character; to constitute; to appoint ( to create a peer)..." (Webster's International, 1965). This idea of 'investing with a new character' is what I think Brenton understands the passage to mean, that is to say, that Wisdom was made the 'arche,' i.e. originating principle, of all things at the time of creation.

    Jehovah Witnesses, did you know about the mistranslation of Proverbs 8:22?

    In regards to Proverbs 8:22, it was translated in the Septuagint as, 'The Lord created [qanah] me in the beginning of his ways...,' and in the New World Translation as, 'From time indefinite I was installed [qanah], from the start, from times earlier than the earth,' although in [every] instance where the Hebrew term 'qanah' appears in the Book of Proverbs, it means to 'acquire,' 'possess,' and to 'get.' Proverbs 8:22 was a crucial verse in the Arian controversies of the fourth century CE. This verse was used both to support [and] refute the Arians' claims.

    For instance, let us consider:

    • Proverbs 1:5, 'A wise man will hear and increase in learning, And a man of understanding will acquire [qanah] wise counsel... .'
    • Proverbs 4:5, 'Acquire [qanah] wisdom! Acquire [qanah] understanding! Do not forget nor turn away from the words of my mouth.'
    • Proverbs 4:7 says, 'The beginning of wisdom is: Acquire [qanah] wisdom; And with all your acquiring, get understanding.'
    • Proverbs 15:32, 'He who neglects discipline despises himself, But he who listens to reproof acquires [qanah] understanding.'
    • Proverbs 16:16, 'How much better it is to get [qanah] wisdom than gold! And to get understanding is to be chosen above silver.'
    • Proverbs 18:15, 'The mind of the prudent acquires [qanah] knowledge, And the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.'
    • Proverbs 19:8, 'He who gets [qanah] wisdom loves his own soul; He who keeps understanding will find good.'

    It is absolutely absurd to think that God would need to create Wisdom, implying there was a time when he lacked Wisdom. The NASB renders Proverbs 8:22 correctly, and is consistent with the rest of Proverbs when it says, 'The LORD possessed [qanah] me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.'

    You will say, "Proverbs 8:22 is similar to Genesis 4:1, where Eve clearly did not mean she 'acquired' or 'bought' Cain, but that she 'produced,' 'begat,' or even 'created' Cain."

    However, let us look at Genesis 4:1,

    'Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, 'I have gotten [qanah] a man child with the help of the LORD.'"

    Given the context of Genesis 4:1, I would argue that it doesn't suggest that Eve 'created’ anything. No, rather, it says that she had received, gotten, or acquired a child with the [help of the LORD]. Thus saying, it was through the LORD which she had acquired a child. Never is the term 'qanah' used in reference of 'creating.' It is always used in terms of receiving, getting, acquiring, possessing. Words translated from the Hebrew term 'qanah' are words such as, acquire, acquired, acquires, bought, buy, buyer, buying, buys, formed, gain acquisition, gained, get, gets, gotten, owner, possessed, possessor, purchased, purchaser, recover, redeemed, sold, and surely buy.

    With that said, you should take notice that the term "bara'" is used in reference of "creating,” “producing,” or “making.” Example, Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created [bara'] the heavens and the earth.” Genesis 1:27, “God created [bara'] man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” Another example is seen in Ecclesiastes 12:1, “Remember also your Creator [bara’] in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, ‘I have no delight in them’;” Also see Genesis 1:21, Genesis 2:3-4, Genesis 5:1-2, Genesis 6:7, Exodus 34:10, Deuteronomy 4:32, Psalm 51:10, Psalm 89:12, Psalm 89:47, Psalm 102:18, Psalm 104:30, Psalm 148:5, Isaiah 4:5, Isaiah 40:26, Isaiah 40:28, Isaiah 41:20, Isaiah 42:5, Isaiah 43:1, Isaiah 43:7, Isaiah 43:15, Isaiah 45:7-8, Isaiah 45:12, Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah 48:7, Isaiah 54:16, Isaiah 57:19, Isaiah 65:17-18 – you get the point.

    Further, you’ll point to texts such as Deuteronomy 32:6, and say, “Well, see, here’s an example of where ‘qanah’ is rendered as ‘created!’” However, it actually reads as, 'Do you thus repay the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is not He your Father who has BOUGHT [qanah] you? He has made you and established you.' Cross reference with Psalm 74:2. Psalm 74:2 of your own New World Translation says, ‘Remember your assembly that you ACQUIRED [qanah – ‘acquired,’ ‘purchased,’ ‘bought’] long ago, The tribe that you redeemed as your inheritance, This Mount Zion in which you have resided.’

    Likewise, Genesis 14:19 reads as, “He blessed him and said, 'Blessed be Abram of God Most High, POSSESSOR [qanah] of heaven and earth;'” Cross reference with Genesis 14:22, "Abram said to the king of Sodom, 'I have sworn to the LORD God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth,'" and Psalm 24:1, 'The earth is the LORD'S, and all it contains, The world, and those who dwell in it.'

    So, you really can not use the Book of Proverbs to prove Jesus as a created creature, because that’s not what it actually says, is it?

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    The Trinity is also very easy to see when you see what the OT prophesied and who it said it about, and what happened in the NT. It's also easy to see that Jesus is called Jehovah in MANY cases.

    Notice these comparisons:

    Isaiah 41:4 and 48:12 calls YHWH or "Jehovah" the first and the last. Compare with Rev 1:17,18 and 2:8 and 22:12-16 where it calls JESUS the first and the last.

    Isaiah 43:3, 11 calls YHWH or "Jehovah" our only savior. Matthew 1:21, Luke 2:11, Hebrews 5:9 (among others) calls JESUS the savior.

    Isaiah 45:24 calls YHWH or "Jehovah" "Our Righteousness". But Jeremiah 23:6 and Romans 3:21,22 gives this title to Jesus.

    The fact is, Jesus is Jehovah. That is not to say that Jesus is the Father. This is what hangs most JWs up. When someone says that Jesus is Jehovah they are saying that the divine name in the OT is rightly applied to Jesus in the NT.

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