I just finished Crisis of Conscience today....

by dontplaceliterature 39 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  Chalam

  Welcome dontplaceliterature!

  Maybe I misunderstood him, but it seems to me that Raymond Franz believes that everyone who gets salvation will experience it by means of a Heavenly Ressurection. I just don't think this adds up, wth regard to the Scriptures I am familiar with. Could it be that there is a disconnect in the translation/understanding of the term Paradise versus that of Heaven?

  I have no desire at all to live in Heaven. The Scriptures specifically say that God didn't form The Earth "simply for nothing," but rather to be "inhabited." -- Isaiah 45:18

  Common sense would tell me that the Earth is not a "Heavenly Springboard" or "Heavinly Testing Station." While I do agree that the number 144,000 mentioned in Revelation is likely/possibly figurative, I just don't see the logic in reasoning that everyone who gains salvation goes to heaven.

  Looking forward to your comments.....

  All Christians go to heaven upon death. Here are some verses on the matter

  Ephesians 4:4-6 (New International Version, ©2010)

  4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

  2 Corinthians 5:1-10 (New International Version, ©2010)

  Awaiting the New Body

  1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

  6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

  Luke 23:42-43 (New International Version, ©2010)

  42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

  43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

  The heavenly dwelling comes to earth after the final "white throne" judgement in Revelation 20.

  Revelation 21:2-3 (New International Version, ©2010)

  2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

  God will live on earth with His people, just as He planned back in Genesis.

  Blessings in Christ,

  Stephen
• 

  Listener

  Just thought that I would repost this message in case you didn't see it on the other thread

  Dontplaceliterature said

  Maybe I misunderstood him, but it seems to me that Raymond Franz believes that everyone who gets salvation will experience it by means of a Heavenly Ressurection. I just don't think this adds up, wth regard to the Scriptures I am familiar with. Could it be that there is a disconnect in the translation/understanding of the term Paradise versus that of Heaven?

  I have no desire at all to live in Heaven. The Scriptures specifically say that God didn't form The Earth "simply for nothing," but rather to be "inhabited." -- Isaiah 45:18

  Common sense would tell me that the Earth is not a "Heavenly Springboard" or "Heavinly Testing Station." While I do agree that the number 144,000 mentioned in Revelation is likely/possibly figurative, I just don't see the logic in reasoning that everyone who gains salvation goes to heaven.

  You made some very interesting comments and covered a lot of ground. I am trying to work through all this myself. The more I read the more I appreciate that we don't know the full picture and must keep openminded about it. One thing is for sure, the org does not have the Truth and are way too dogmatic to allow themselves to freely seek it. They are too conclusive about their doctrines and are unable to refocus. They have forgotton to look at the source and research with the help of many bible scholars both current and from history.

  Someone bumped a thread the other day and I think you may find it helpful. It is titled The 144,000 and the Great Crowd. It is a very well researched paper by a poster called Leolaia and is written in a way that takes into account the current understandings that the JWs have. I printed out her posts and I must have printed at least 20 pages worth. She relies on information from other sources, including quotes from some Jewish book, written a long time ago. I initially had a problem with that but now think it is very logical. Firstly, her interpretation does not rely on these sources but only adds to an understanding. Secondly, because these other manuscripts were written so long ago it would be reasonable to assume that they had a better understanding of concepts that are used in Revelation that we have today. She is not conclusive and she humbly accepts that we cannot be sure of it's true interpretation but she certainly debunks the JWs interpretation and supports her claim clearly and in detail. I have rarely seen anything of this quality which is of the highest degree on a forum. The link is

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/96705/1/The-144-000-and-the-Great-Crowd-of-Revelation

  or you can do a search using the search button with the heading title.

  There are so many comments that you have raised. If you would like a discussion on them could I suggest that you post your ideas seperately otherwise the thread goes all over the place.
• 

  hasmat

  Chalam, I appreciate someone who replies with scriptures; adds weight to the subject on hand. Thanks for your comment.

  As for any elder calling to see how I am doing, ( since I disassociated myself in yr. 2000 ) Not one word. No one knocks on my door..so I'm sure they've marked my house as a 'do not call'. I wish someone would knock. I have a few scriptures I'd like to share with them.

  Matthew 12:50
  "For whosoever shall DO THE WILL of my Father who is in heaven, he is my BROTHER, and sister, and mother.

  The JW other sheep class need to hear Christ's words as to who his brothers really are. They might be surprised to know they are included.

  John 10:9 ; Christ said, "I am the door; by me if any man enter in, HE SHALL BE SAVED."

  How long has the Watchtower taught the HEAVENLY DOOR was Closed in the year 1935. It is evident the GB don't even know who or what the heavenly door is. Now really, who are the APOSTATES? Who would dare teach men that Christ is not for you, or 'the Bible was not written for you, or Christ is not your mediator?

  I was born and raised in the JW religion, and gullible enough to raise my children in it, of which I now regret. I've removed the stumbling block (The JW religion) and now finally freed in order to 'Come to Christ', to listen to his voice instead of the voice of false shepherds who make followers after themselves.

  Acts 20:28-30; 28 "Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. 29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."

  The JW elders have not paid enough attention to this warning. They will be held accountable when Christ returns to inspect what belongs to him.
• 

  hasmat

  I may as well stay on the thread:

  Yes I read "Crisis of Conscience and too Brother Franz' book 'In Search of Christian Freedom', ( both an excellant read) and would recommend them both to anyone who desires to know how the organization leaders really do things. I especially ejoyed "In Search of Christian Freedom". After reading them I got on my knees and prayed to God to give me 'the truth', something I never thought the need to do. And then began a deep personal Bible study..day and night for two years...LOL! Sometimes I'd wake up in the middle of the night in order to study on a word ...I was DRIVEN! I never was like that while I was in the JW ORG. I really do believe God answered my prayer.

  John 15:7;Christ said,"If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever you will, and it shall be done unto you."

  see also James 1:5
• 

  palmtree67

  They should just change the teaching to "The Faithful and Discreet Slave = The Governing Body."

  I really believe they are in the process of doing that right now.
• 

  moshe

  I really believe they are in the process of doing that right now.

  They have recently failed to mention the F&DS were the ones who were directing the GB- they just said the GB is leading the JWs (not mentioning the F&DS). it will be interesting to see how the writing dept kills off the main character in their long running play.
• 

  mouthy

  Could I be disfellowshipped SOLEY because I do not agree that Christ came invisably in 1914??

  That is why I was Disfellowshipped
• 

  hasmat

  Dontplaceliterature,

  Heaven is where God is: God's Spirit dwells upon the earth.

  Revelation 21:3-5 "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" ....Heavenly paradise? I believe so.
• 

  MrFreeze

  I don't know mouthy... I told them that and they haven't disfellowshipped me yet. Yet, being the key word.
• 

  Chalam

  2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (New International Version, ©2010)

  The Man of Lawlessness

  1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

  Matthew 24:26-27 (New International Version, ©2010)

  26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

  Acts 1:9-11 (New International Version, ©2010)

  9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

  10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

  Revelation 1:7-8 (New International Version, ©2010)

  7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
  and “every eye will see him,
  even those who pierced him”;
  and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
  So shall it be! Amen.

  8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

  Blessings in Christ,

  Stephen