I find it very hard to believe in a god

by Newborn 65 Replies latest jw friends

  • Qcmbr

    Swiss cheese still has a well defined structure. Creation has none.

    If creation was the way it was done then the evidence would need account for:

    1 - Stratification of fossils showing a progression from simple cellular forms through to complex ones (since creation took 6 days.)

    2 - Oil, coal or tar formations as currently discovered (the amounts of biological matter required are staggering).

    3 - Chalk formations such as the Dover cliffs (just sit and think about how many little tiny animals had to die to make that and how much carbon they have locked away - and all the limestone and carbon formations across the earth - if all that carbon existed as free gas at the same time then this planet would not have supported any life.)

    4 - Evolution would need to run many, many times faster to generate all the current species from all the 'kinds' available for Eden and the Ark.

    5 - 98% of God's creations / micro evolved lifeforms would need to have gone extinct in less than 6000 years with no help from mankind.

    6 - Dinosaurs of all kinds would need to be the main animals painted on cave walls, recorded in books and in all early myths and legends (since they would have been the dominant types for a long time.)

    7 - Human remains would need to be found at every level of the geological column (no death before the fall.)

    8 - Poor 'design' options such as flipped eyes, the appendix, wind pipes mixed with food pipes, external nutsacks, maturation required outside the womb due to a too big head and too small birth canal etc.

    9 - Why the heck God would need any human body parts assuming he was the blueprint (but I apologise I digress from strictly testable evidence.)

    10 - All the lifeless junk in the universe which does not interact with this planet or its creation and therefore is so much egotistical fluff.

    Religionists need to accept that their books can only be apologised away so far. You cant extend 6 days to billions of years, you can't say that there was death before Eden, you can't pretend that light was created (and then the stars!) ...need I go on.

  • Curtains

    newborn, my way of understanding evolution is to think of symbiosis - I find I can relate to evolution much better like this. We see symbiosis all around us particularly in the plant world and it is an important catapult of evolution. For example the chloroplasts that enable plants to synthesize sugars were once free living bacteria. Nowadays they cannot live apart from their hosts, the plants that cannot survive without them.

    Wiki has some interesting detail


    In a symbiotic commensalism, the clownfish feeds on small invertebrates which otherwise potentially could harm the sea anemone, and the fecal matter from the clownfish provides nutrients to the sea anemone

  • tec

    Qcmbr - Most of your list only matters to a young earth creationist, leaving out those people who believe that a) God created the earth and all that is in it, but the 'days' are not literal... instead adapted to the understanding of the person receiving the information, or b) God started the creation cycle... using all that science can tell us (accurately), knowing exactly where his creation would head (in terms of species and biology and planetary alignments, etc), right from the start.

    Or perhaps even c, d, or e) that I can't currently think of.

    I would hazard a guess that there are less people who believe in God and a young earth, than there are people who believe in God and a billion year old earth (or whatever science has shown)


  • VoidEater

    I don't see that belief or non-belief in a god is all that important.

  • LV101

    tec: so true -- love your post. so many get involved w/the WTS where love and decency is the last thing they will find.


  • Qcmbr

    Tammy- so really what you are saying is that you don't literally believe in the bible. There was no 6 days of creation, there was no Eden 6000 years ago ( before which there was no death) , there was no fall, there was no flood ( which would still require miraculous evolution to generate all the species we have today) .... Since you and I agree that the bible is just a bunch of stories and I suspect you also agree that over 2500 gods recorded in similar myths are not true, why not face your fears and accept that the god your culture brainwashed you into believing isn't true as well. You'll find that love, morality, awe, friendships, fulfilment, art, hope etc. do not cease and often increase in intensity unencumbered by slavery and guilt.

  • Curtains

    newborn I'm going to return to your opening post to suggest another means of understanding evolution. You said

    but I find it equally hard to believe in the evolution theory

    so for now, I chose not to believe in anything but myself and love

    That was all


    Your second sentence "so for now, I chose not to believe in anything but myself and love" suggests you understand more than you know. To explain I'm going to add another word/concept to symbiosis - involution which refers to a taking to oneself or a rolling inwards. And this is what often happens in evolution. An organism forms an alliance (which to me is like love, reciprocity etc) which it takes into itself (involution) and both members of the alliance are changed in unexpected ways. This to me is evolution in a nutshell. I find it so fascinating that often we understand things subconsciously long before we can entertain then consciously.

    I invite challenges to this hypotheisis as I learn best when being proved wrong.

  • tec
    Since you and I agree that the bible is just a bunch of stories

    I don't think that you and I agree on this. I do believe that the bible is made up of a combination of scripture, history, parables and laws. I do not believe in the inerrancy of the bible, but please do not mistake this as meaning I think it is all untrue. I agree with whatever agrees with what Christ taught and showed, most especially regarding love and mercy, and THAT is a theme the gospel writers seem to have agreed upon.

    I believe in creation, I believe Eden exists, I believe in the fall... I don't know if the flood was a local event, or a global one (though science does not support this in such a short time frame), or a myth carried over from other stories - even though the evidence of a flood story recorded in many different religions would tell me that there might be some truth to it, if perhaps misunderstood or miscommunicated. But I also think that the bible (its books, people, prophets, and writers) is a witness TO Christ. So I may have learned about Him from the pages of this book, but He is far more than just the book that speaks about Him. So I put my faith in the Word of God... who is Christ, and not the bible... and I believe in the God and Father who He taught.

    Qcmbr, I also do not believe that love, morality, awe, friendship, fulfillment, art, hope, etc... cannot be found outside of my faith. Some people understand love and mercy naturally ( a law unto themselves ). I am not one of those people. I am learning those things from Christ. Perhaps you need to believe that the bible is 100% literal and inerrant, or 100% false. But unless you're listening to what (some) men say about it, then it doesn't have to be one or the other. It certainly never says that about itself.


  • tec
    so many get involved w/the WTS where love and decency is the last thing they will find.

    Its sad, isn't it, LV101? Because that's exactly what they're taught they will find.


  • cofty
    An organism forms an alliance (which to me is like love, reciprocity etc) which it takes into itself (involution) and both members of the alliance are changed in unexpected ways. - Curtains

    Be careful you don't get your image of the natural world from Walt Disney. Symbiosis is wonderful but its at one end of the spectrum of parasitical behaviour that is the norm in nature. Nature is "red in tooth and claw" - Tennyson

    Two brief examples of many...

    Two types of closely related parasitic worms dramatically influence the behaviour of mice to suit their own needs. One worm will prompt the mouse to become hyperactive, scampering through fields so frenetically that it attracts the attention of a predatory bird that will eat the mouse and the worm with it. When the bird eats the mouse, it provides the necessary next home for the parasitic larvae. By contrast, the related worm species will cause a mouse to become sluggish, heightening the chance it will be easily stalked down by the carnivorous mammals this worm prefers for its second shelter.

    Other parasitic larvae have been found to drive host snails mad, forcing the creatures to make a suicidal ascent to the top of a blade of grass, rather than hiding underneath the foliage. At the same time, a few of the invading larvae migrate to the snail's antennae, turn bright colours and pulsate, transforming the hapless gastropod's feelers into a reasonable facsimile of a caterpillar. That resemblance catches the attention of birds, which then consume the infested snails. Once in the guts of the birds, the larval worms can mature and reproduce.

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