by Perry 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Perry: "He was the eternal Son of God manifest in the flesh. Same essence, slightly different personality. Or he was the biggest liar and psycho-maniac who ever lived."
you know, if you change the "and" to an "or" you get CS Lewis dilemma.
Ofcourse it would still be a false dilemma, but one more option would make it seem more impressive.
We are the lord of our inner kingdom, and thus, of the outer one as well.
Prodical,
The above was his conclusion. I reject the Emerging Church where people sorta worship themselves (along side Jesus of course)
"The Lord is One"
Jehovah would have either annihilated or rewarded them depending on whether or not they helped Israel gain more real estate.
Not so. Jehovah spared Nineveh by them simply believing and repenting. Sounds just like Jesus.
Perry, I too reject any form of self-worship. That's what has gotten us into so much trouble already... people have been developing their EGOS instead of the Inner Christ. It's a little complicated, but there's a difference between the "animal" self and the "God" self. Until we quiet the constant chatter of the mind, we can't hear that voice of God within. This chatter is exacerbated by Watchtower indoctrination.... it's a major difference to say "I belong to God" instead of "God and I belong to each other". It has to be a relationship....not a one-way idolization. It's not about worshiping God, or Jesus, because if they are ONE just as WE are, they don't NEED our worship. In the article that Walsch wrote, he even mentioned that at first it seems like blasphemy. But this is a man-made idea, dreamed up by a priesthood, who put these things in the Bible. But, if a person chooses to continue the belief that it's one-hundred-percent God-breathed in spite of the incoherent mess that it is, they'll remain under it's spell..... I was THERE for my whole life up until about four years ago. The dark depression finally lifted and I started having a small clue as to just why the hell I was put on this earth.
It not self-worship either, it's about LOVING oneself, because if we don't love ourselves, we can't possibly love anyone else. This is what Jesus was saying in the 17th chapter of John. We are indeed ALL ONE.... we are tied to each other electrically and consciously...separateness is an illusion caused by our egos. If we see God in ourselves, we will also see God in others, and that's where the parable of the sheep and goats takes on its true meaning... if we spend more energy serving OTHERS rather than ourselves, we will reap the real benefit.... didn't Jesus say there is more pleasure in giving than in receiving? It seems to be the best kept secret in the world, but then this wonderful truth manifests itself at Christmas! (Or at least it's SUPPOSED to.)
It not self-worship either, it's about LOVING oneself, because if we don't love ourselves, we can't possibly love anyone else. This is what Jesus was saying in the 17th chapter of John. We are indeed ALL ONE.... we are tied to each other electrically and consciously...separateness is an illusion caused by our egos.
Wrong:
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
We only find oneness by being born again. And to be born again a person must disown himself (like Jesus did). Obviously this is rather difficult and goes against our survival instinct. There are no short-cuts. This is the cup Jesus asks us to drink.
"he was the biggest liar or psycho-maniac who ever lived"
Well not necessarily for a couple of reasons. 1. the Gospels are terribly distorted and filled with inaccuracies showing the compilers were a tad ignorant of Judaism and 2. this Jesus if really the Messiah didn't have to be God in the flesh to accomplish Messianic things: see Dead Sea Scroll 11Q13.
Now by putting words into a Jews mouth about eternal torture does make this character out to be the biggest psycho-maniac running around.
More shameful is the Christian Church teaching this awful idea to children generation after generation. Fundamentalists groups seem to be the last vestiges of the Dark Ages holding on to this doctrine. Even the RCC is moving on from it and they were the big perpetrators of it centuries ago.
Fundamentalists groups seem to be the last vestiges of the Dark Ages holding on to this doctrine
Yes they are. And I am eternally grateful for the candle that they kept lit during that dark time.
Perry-
I think its important that guys like you and Stephen describe in detail the doctrines you believe in. With Witnesses coming out of a religion with its own oddities and often times seeking a religious affiliation they can easily get caught in other traps such as the Evangelical and Fundamentalist worlds.
You guys do everyone a great service, kind of like hanging a Big Warning sign out in front of a building.
Someday it may hit you as you read the NT just what the errors and omissions are, enjoy the journey.
"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us and our predecessors."
"sigh"
http://www.thedevineevidence.com/skeptic_quotes.html
ALLEGED QUOTE: "How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us!" or "What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!" Though rarely accompanied by a source, this quote is always attributed to Pope Leo X . When a source is offered,
it is sometimes cited as being found in the 14th edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica, Volume 19, Page 217.
Not only do these pages not mention the quote, it is not even the volume that contains the Pope Leo X article! His
article is found in Volume 13 on pages 926-928. Though I read the encyclopedia article, this quote appears
nowhere within the text. Even though the encyclopedia admits to Leo leaving the papacy virtually bankrupt upon
his death, this quote is never attributed to him.
So where did this quote originate? Skeptics claim Leo said this to a member of his entourage who later attributed
the quote to him. However, the quote has now been attributed to the 16th century satirist and playwright , John Bale . John Bale joined the Protestant movement after becoming disenchanted with the corruption of the Catholic
church. He wrote many parodies in which he openly expressed his disdain of papal abuse. One of his satirical
works known as The Pageant of the Popes is the actual source of the quote in question (paraphrased in modern
English for the reader's convenience): "For on a time when a cardinal Bembus did move a question out of the Gospel, the Pope gave him a very
contemptuous answer saying: All ages can testify enough how profitable that fable of Christ hath been
to us and our company." ( Pageant of the Popes Page 179)
Even the Catholic Encyclopedia explains this quote does not come from Leo: "His piety cannot truly be described
as deep or spiritual, but that does not justify the continued repetition of his alleged remark: 'How much we and
our family have profited by the legend of Christ, is sufficiently evident to all ages.' John Bale, the apostate
English Carmelite, the first to give currency to these words in the time of Queen Elizabeth, was not even a
contemporary of Leo." Catholic Encyclopedia CONCLUSION: This quote is from a fictional 16th century work written as a parody. Presenting this as a
legitimate quote would be as absurd as attributing a line from a Shakespearian play to the real life character
whom an actor depicted.
BTS
dear ProdigalSon...
you said: "If we see God in ourselves, we will also see God in others" the problem with celebrating the "God in ourselves" etc. is that everyone has a different idea about what constitutes "god"...some people idolize their children, some people idolize movie stars, the pope, their church, angels, their friend...that is where having and knowing that there IS an "outside" God who is seperate from but a part of us helps each of us have a correct perspective as to WHO we should worship...revelation 19:10 speaks to me about being too inclined to focus on the "god/inner christ" of "your brother".
love michelle
LOL.....Leo X was probably drunk when he spilled the beans.....
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican30c.htm
It is from Christianity's own records that Pope Leo's statement became known to the world. In his diaries, Cardinal Bembo, the Pope's secretary for seven years, added that Leo:
"...was known to disbelieve Christianity itself. He advanced contrary to the faith and that in condemning the Gospel, therefore he must be a heretic; he was guilty of sodomy with his chamberlains; was addicted to pleasure, luxury, idleness, ambition, unchastity and sensuality; and spent his whole days in the company of musicians and buffoons. His Infallibility's drunkenness was proverbial, he practiced incontinency as well as inebriation, and the effects of his crimes shattered the people's constitution." (Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, ibid.)
On behalf of the Church, Cardinal Baronius officially defended Pope Leo's declaration, saying it was "an invention of his corroded mind" (Annales Ecclesiastici, op. cit., tome iv) , but in applauding the pope's tyrannical conduct supported the essence of his testimony on the grounds of the infallibility of the Church of Rome:
"Of his wicked miscarriages, we, having had before a careful deliberation with our brethren and the Holy Council, and many others, and although he was unworthy to hold the place of St Peter on Earth, Pope Leo the Great [440-461] originally determined that the dignity of Peter suffers no diminution even in an unworthy successor.
[see Catholic Encyclopedia, i, pp. 289, 294, passim]
In regard to the keys, as Vicar of Christ he rendered himself to put forth this knowledge truly; and all do assent to it, so that none dissent who does not fall from the Church; the infamy of his testimonial and conduct is readily pardoned and forgotten." (Annales Ecclesiastici, ibid.)
Later, John Bale (1495-1563) seized upon Pope Leo's confession and the subsequent Vatican admission that the pope had spoken the truth about the "fable of Christ" and "put forward this knowledge truly" (Annales Ecclesiastici, ibid.). Bale was an Englishman who had earlier joined the Carmelites but abandoned the order after the Inquisition slaughtered his family (Of the Five Plagues of the Church [originally titled The Five Wounds of the Church], Count Antonio Rosmini [Catholic priest and papal adviser], 1848, English trans. by Prof. David L. Wilhelm, Russell Square Publishing, London, 1889).
He became a playwright and in 1538 developed lampooning pantomimes to mock the pretended godliness of the Catholic Church and "parodied its rites and customs on stage" (The Complete Plays of John Bale, ed. Peter Happé, Boydell & Brewer, Cambridge, 1985).
After the public disclosure of the hollow nature of Christianity, "people were rejoicing that the papacy and the Church had come to an end" (Of the Five Plagues of the Church, op. cit.), but later Christian historians acrimoniously referred to the popular theatrical production as "that abominable satire", dishonestly claiming that it was the origin of Pope Leo's frank admission (De Antiqua Ecclesiae Disciplina, Bishop Louis Dupin [Catholic historian], Paris folio, 1686).
