Question for Board/Current JWs re Holy Spirit/holy spirit...

by AGuest 39 Replies latest jw friends

  • trillaz
    trillaz

    She thinks you don't know the difference between Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost. In the current JW view, those who claim to follow the holy <blank> and are non-JW are claiming to follow the "Holy Ghost", not Spirit. This beings up vews of Pentacostal or Baptists having fits and "getting the holy ghost". The distinction is partially based on verbiage. If I put on my own recent Witness veil, I would think that you meant Holy Ghost which equates to a non-holy spirit in the same way that King Saul thought he had Samuel conjured up.

    Since the doctrine states that this is Gods active force, to personify the spirit and claim to follow it probably sent off that bell.

    Hope this helps

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    Good morning Shelby,

    as you know that last qoute in my post

    " Likewise today, boldness in speaking the word of God, zealously engaging in the work of witnessing these are what give evidence that a person has holy spirit."

    was not from scripture, but from their opinion. The funny thing is, how can they say that and claim not to be inspired ?

    They are trying to say that having Gods holy spirit doesn't inspire them to avoid being called false prophets, what they are saying doesn't make any since what so ever.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Shelby,

    Maybe a year ago a JW stopped at my door and discussed the latest magazine regarding the holy spirit, as they define it. We discussed the topic for about 45 minutes, along with some side points. I pointed him to Acts 13:2-4 where the Holy Spirit expresses his will and speaks in first person. He played the typical "personification" card. I pointed out to him that Acts is a historical narrative, not subject to use of poetic literary styles. Otherwise, one could make the same argument that when the Devil speaks in first person, it is just a personification of evil. When he left, he promised to return to see what I thought of the magazine article. But he never did return.

    Perhaps the reaction of the JWs you mention is their inherent fear of encountering a type of Christian, like a Pentecostal, Assembly of God, or Four Square. These and other types of charismatics are thought by many JWs to be "demon-ized" because JWs believe that the Holy Spirit is just a blind force, and not a person. It is a form of stereotyping bias on their part. Charismatic Christians never bothered me, so, I would talk with them when I was a JW.

    Side note: Some ex-JWs, I notice, still get confused by the Trinity, and think that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are the same persons ... which they are not. No Trinitarian worth his/her salt would ever say so. But, here too JWs, and thus some ex-JWs, still have it confused because of misleading Watchtower teachings about the traditional doctrines of mainline Christianity, especially the Trinity.

    Jim

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Since the doctrine states that this is Gods active force, to personify the spirit and claim to follow it probably sent off that bell. Hope this helps

    Yes, dear Trillaz (peace to you!) and it does make sense... if their doctrine is the reason. And, again, it could be. You know, I wonder if these particular folks were always JWs... or pretty recent converts from, say, another religion that believed the Holy Spirit is a person. That would explain the MANNER of their reaction, while perhaps not the reason for it. I dunno...

    what they are saying doesn't make any since what so ever.

    Now that you look back on it, dear Wuz (peace to you, again, too, dear one!), does ANY of what they say make sense, save one or two items of very little significance? They are the epitome of the saying, "If you can't dazzle 'em with brillliance ... baffle 'em with..."

    Well... you get my drift. I mean, how much can janitors and window washers really know about such things... without inspiration from the Holy Spirit? Thus, they're VERY good at baffling folks!

    Again, peace to you both!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • pirata
    pirata

    I do not consciously believe I have felt the Holy Spirit, at least not in the way the Bible describes it as working in a clearly recognizable way on an individual. I think most JWs have not felt it either.

    As far as I can tell, most JWs figure they are following the lead of the Holy Spirit through the Governing Body by following it's directions.

    I think that for most JWs, it does not computer if someone outside the organization hears the Holy Spirit. They cannot fathom how anyone outside the organization would have the holy spirit, therefore may assume it is the demons or mental issues. The only exception I can think of is their belief that when a non-JW prays for guidance, then the spirit may impel a witness to go to their door to preach.

    Some articles to back up my thoughts that the general message is that the Holy Spirit mainly works through the Governing Body

    (WT July 15, 2010) When the time comes to clarify a spiritual matter in our day, holy spirit helps responsible representatives of “the faithful and discreet slave” at world headquarters to discern deep truths that were not previously understood. (Matt. 24:45; 1 Cor. 2:13) The Governing Body as a whole considers adjusted explanations. (Acts 15:6) What they learn, they publish for the benefit of all. (Matt.10:27) As time goes on, further clarifications may be needed, and these too are honestly explained.

    *** w87 8/1 p. 12 par. 10 Christ Actively Leads His Congregation ***

    10 Christ personally supervised the preaching work. By means of the holy spirit received from his Father Jehovah, he initiated Paul’s missionary journeys and took a personal interest in them. We read: “The holy spirit said: ‘Of all persons set Barnabas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have called them.’ . . . Accordingly these men, sent out by the holy spirit, went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed away” on the first missionary trip. (Acts 13:2-4) Of course, the holy spirit, Jehovah’s active force, could neither ‘say’ something nor ‘send out’ someone of itself. The one using the spirit to direct matters was obviously Christ, the Head of the congregation.

    14 Similarly, an attentive reading of the Scriptures shows clearly that Christ was behind the important meeting of the governing body held to settle the question as to whether Gentile Christians should submit to circumcision and the Law of Moses or not. The book of Acts states that when the issue arose, “they [no doubt the responsible members, or elders, of the Antioch congregation] arranged for Paul and Barnabas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute.” (Acts 15:1, 2) But when Paul relates the circumstances that led to his going to Jerusalem to have the circumcision issue settled, he states: “I went up as a result of a revelation.” (Galatians 2:1-3; compare 1:12.) As the active Head of the congregation, Christ wanted this important doctrinal matter to be settled by the entire visible governing body. By means of the holy spirit, he guided the minds of these devoted men in making their decision.—Acts 15:28, 29.

    *** km 1/79 p. 3 par. 5 Are We Allowing God’s Spirit to Operate Freely? ***
    5 Today God has widened out the territory to include all the earth. “Macedonia” could be our town, our rurals, our block, our apartment house! Are there “Lydias” waiting there? Are we giving God’s spirit an opportunity to direct us to them by putting forth the effort? Or are we waiting for the spirit to move us? It actually works the other way around. When we move, the spirit will bless and lead us.

    Articles do mention that the Holy Spirit can affect individual JWs who follow all the organizational requirements:

    *** km 1/79 p. 3 par. 5 Are We Allowing God’s Spirit to Operate Freely? ***

    HOW GOD’S SPIRIT OPERATES FREELY
    2 As a person can draw on electric power by putting a plug into an outlet and he can get water by turning on a faucet, so we open the way for God’s spirit to operate in our lives when we take some action. For example, we benefit from the operation of holy spirit (1) when we personally study God’s inspired Word (2 Tim. 3:16; Josh. 1:8), (2) when we attend meetings where that Word is discussed (Heb. 10:24, 25; 1 Cor. 14:24, 25), (3) when we give a witness to others about the good things contained in the Bible (Acts 1:8; John 14:26), (4) when our actions toward our Christian brothers and sisters demonstrate love, which is a fruit of God’s spirit (1 John 3:14, 16-18; Gal. 5:22), (5) when we respond appreciatively to the oversight of elders who have been appointed by holy spirit (Acts 20:28; Eph. 4:8, 11-16), and (6) when we turn to God in prayer and ask for his help (Luke 11:13). On the other hand, at Ephesians 4:30 we are told: “Do not be grieving God’s holy spirit.” So we need to avoid conduct that is out of harmony with God’s spirit, which is a holy, or clean, force.

    5 Today God has widened out the territory to include all the earth. “Macedonia” could be our town, our rurals, our block, our apartment house! Are there “Lydias” waiting there? Are we giving God’s spirit an opportunity to direct us to them by putting forth the effort? Or are we waiting for the spirit to move us? It actually works the other way around. When we move, the spirit will bless and lead us.

    However, even these examples seem to indicate that they way the Holy Spirit guides us is through cooperation with the organization and by doing what the organization says.

    At one time, Bible reading was upsetting because of my training that if the spirit is leading me, then I should be coming to the same conclusion as the organization. Personally when I read that Jesus is Mediator and ransom for all, and that all led by the spirit (instead of the world's spirit) are God's sons, I feel that this should apply to all Christians. Not just some elite group who claim that only their representatives receive deep things from the Holy Spirit. I do not see any clear indication in the apostles letters that there is one class of Christians directly saved by Jesus, and another class who is saved becasuse they are friends of the first class. I think that mindset though is what causes individual JWs, especially great crowd members, to feel distant form the Holy Spirit.

    Peace indeed.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    I think that mindset though is what causes individual JWs, especially great crowd members, to feel distant form the Holy Spirit.

    Which, according to my Lord, dear Pirata (peace to you!), is the EXACT purpose OF and FOR the WTBTS! (Matthew 24:24)

    May those with ears HEAR... and get the SENSE of this truth! These are the PRIMARY among those who "shut UP the kingdom of the heavens before men"... because THEY are not going in. So, neither do they allow those on THEIR way in to GO in. (Matthew 23:13; Revelation 7:9, 10, 14, 15-17)

    Christ, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit... IS the WAY... IN. HE... is the "Door" that these have blocked. (John 10:7, 9; 14:6)

    Again, peace to you!

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • Broken Promises
    Broken Promises

    If someone at the door told me that the Holy Spirit talks to them, I'd realise that they have a mental condition and leave.

  • tec
    tec
    So, neither do they allow those on THEIR way in to GO in.

    Yes. Because I had chatted with the JW's who came to the door for years without ever inviting them in... until I decided I want to reconnect with my faith, but read the bible so I would know that no one was fooling me. It was then that they offered a bible study, and I accepted, because I just didn't think I could understand the bible on my own. (had decided to start on page one and work my way through to Revelations.)

    But never once during that study was I told that I could pray for Holy Spirit to help me understand, or that I could ask God to send me His son so that I could understand. To the contrary, I was taught that only a few could be anointed, and that the rest of US had a different hope. In effect, shutting up the kingdom; shutting up the hope that we have of being with Christ wherever He is.

    I think it is mostly those who are seeking but don't know where to turn (or that this 'where' isn't even a true option, but rather to whom they should turn), who accept a study for whatever reasons... and then are even taught to refuse Christ, such as at the Memorial.

    Tammy

  • new light
    new light

    My 2c viewpoint is that JWs believe holy spirit only leads to JW land. If one claims to have it, yet is not led to JW land, then that person must be delusional or is being led by an evil misleading force.

    They actually tend have a problem with any sort of personal insight/revelation that fails to support WT directly, IME. Even just choosing to eat well or exercise can lead to being viewed with suspicion.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    You should consider asking the Holy Spirit what compelled you to open... read... and comment on a thread posted by the likes of me (which you obviously can't help doing... again and again). Because it's also obvious that you neither know... nor apparently have any better sense yourself.

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

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