No Need For EdenTree Unless God Knew An Angle was...

by Sayswho 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Sayswho

    AGuest...still digesting what you said.


  • Perry
    Adam and Jeh should of had a very close relationship, so ADAM could feel he could approach GOD with any problem he had

    Good point. However an equally plausible and more probable scenario was that Adam knew God enough to know that he would live up to his word and simply chose disobedience to be with Eve in her rebellion.

  • designs

    Gosh, maybe just maybe the story is an allegory from Early Bronze Age Semetic tribes. Somebody (Christians as usual) walk briskly past their local Synagogues avoiding any contact with the people whose ancestors wrote the account

    Faulty assumptions lead to bad conclusions.......

  • AGuest
    why or what kind of Father leaves his kids in the dark and makes them jump through hoops with the outcome being dangerous.

    Your question is based on a serious error, dear designs (peace to you!). It supposes that Adam and Eve were left in the dark, which they weren't, not at all. BOTH were told the properties of the tree and what would happen if they ate. And no "hoops", none whatsoever. They were told "Don't eat of it, don't even touch it, because if you do you will die." No darkness there.

    I am a father and grandfather, I would never and have never done such a cruel thing to my kids or grandson.

    First, what "cruel" thing? Second, what the Most Holy One of Israel did was the most LOVING thing a father/grandfather could do: warn them of the danger. He did just that. True, Adam and Eve were YOUNG. That they were able to procreate doesn't mean they were fully mature... or even "adult/grown" by today's standards. Everyone just assumes that. But I truly don't know where they're getting that from. Indeed, less than 200 years ago and beyond, "childbearing" age was 12-14... if not younger... for women (and still is in some places). But they were certainly "grown" enough to "know better." Anyone here who owns a gun... and has a 14 year old... should be able to say that that child "knows better" than to take out the gun and "try" it... when you've warned them NOT to. If they do, who in the world's fault is that??

    Adam and Jeh should of had a very close relationship, so ADAM could feel he could approach GOD with any problem he had

    The implication here, dear sayswho (peace to you, as well!), is that Adam has reason to fear God, which is untrue, and the assumption that it was the fault of the Most Holy One of Israel, that Adam DIDN'T approach Him with his problems. But I am willing to bet that if you asked almost every parent on this Board, there has been a time... or two... when although they held out the "olive branch" of love and openess to one of their children, that child STILL refrained from approaching... particularly when they had done something wrong.

    It isn't always a parent's anger that gives rise to fear in a child; sometimes, it's the child's error... and resultant shame. That shame is the SAME feeling they get when a parent IS angry, but isn't always provoked by the parent. I could ask "Who of you parents have said to a child, 'Why didn't you come to me?' and had that child respond, 'I didn't think I could..."? to which such parent would have said, "Of course, you could; you can always come to me..." but the child just didn't believe it... or do it." But I don't think there's enough board space for the affirmative responses.

    Sometimes... sometimes... it really is the kid's fault, alone. Sometimes... sometimes... the parent really did do all they could to raise that child "right"... and even still, the child chose to do something on his/her own... to his/her own detriment... and the great sadness, chagrin, and despair... of the parent. Sometimes.

    You can say Eve didn't fully understand - she was deceived, after all. But you can't say Adam didn't, because Adam sinned by choice. As a perfect human/spirit before he ate, he COULD have saved not only himself, but his wife. He could have done what Christ did for HIS "wife" - given his life. To save hers. That one unselfish act would have resulted in BOTH of their lives being saved. Because HIS love... would have "covered." Even if he died to save her life, his life would have been restored to him. THAT is how he would have known "good" (life)... AND "bad" (death)... and yet, lived.

    Rather, he blamed her... and God. He selfishly put himself first. He even sold his progeny! IMHO, a man who doesn't even have the cahones to take responsibility for his own actions, who was given the RIGHT to live... forever... eat from every tree to his heart's desire... but ate from one that was prohibited... yet, take no accountability for doing so... indeed, not only blamed others... but sold the lives of his children... has no place in the garden. He should have been turned out. I would have turned him out.

    If my son, who is of childbearing years, after learning that his younger sibling was tricked into disobeying me... rather than telling that younger sibling to tell me what she did... or at least, coming to me and trying to plead for lenience FOR her... decided to do it TOO... and then isn't "man" enough to at least say, "Here's what I did, Mom..." well, I would think it was time for him to get his own place, too. And sorry, if that means he has to get a job and work like a dog to pay for it. I mean, he was living at home, scott free... all the food he could want... nothing out of his reach... except the hot stove. Which could have seriously harmed him, so I warned him not to touch it. Every other appliance at his use... only thing restricted was that one thing that could harm him. And he decided he knew better than me... and so turned it on... then blamed his sister... AND me...

    Nope, not sure I'd let him stay. Might be time to grow up and till his own "garden." 'Cause next time he disobeys me, he might just burn down the whole house, not just his hand.

    I hope this helps!

    A slave of Christ,


  • AGuest
    maybe just maybe the story is an allegory from Early Bronze Age Semetic tribes. Somebody (Christians as usual) walk briskly past their local Synagogues avoiding any contact with the people whose ancestors wrote the account...

    Although the Internet actually makes visiting a synagogue unnecessary these days, dear designs (peace to you!) as today, the beliefs of various Jewish factions... which are as varied as some "christian" beliefs can be had at the click of a mouse... one shouldn't assume that all don't visit synagogues... or JCCs... or work for/with or otherwise associate with Jews... whether Orthodox or Reformed (but probably not Hassidic), etc., and discuss such matters. Some do. All of these.

    Even so, such allegorical explanation apparently wasn't (and still isn't) accepted by ALL Jews. Just as Judaism wasn't... and isn't... accepted by all Jews.

    Assumptions, assumptions...

    Again, peace to you!

    A slave of Christ,


  • Farkel


    You've got it all wrong. I wish newbies would check the archives before they bring up topics that are already covered in detail.


  • CandleLight

    Candlelight- ask a Rabbi about Adam and Eve then rethink your assumptions.

    Morning Designs,

    I have no need to consult a Rabbi. :-)

    Aguest. I liked you part about tilling his own Garden. Pretty much what father told him to do isn't it? He wanted the knowledge, well ok, you now have what you want, unfortunatly you are not a gardener and nothing will grow. ;-)



  • DJPoetech

    To bad Eve didn't eat of the Tree-of-teleportation before the tree-of-the-knowlege-of-good-and-bad. It would have solved all of our travel issues.

    That was by far the stupidest tree in the garden.

    Seems we focus so much on the tree in the middle of the garden that no one considers the other trees in the rest of the garden.

    How about the tree of math knowlege. Its not a natural gift or my GPA would be higher.

    We didn't stay long enough in that garden to utilize anything else other than 10% of our brains. Considering Satan, would he make us eat of something that would make us easier to manipulate or harder.

    He successfully fed us the stupidest fruit in the garden. Maybe just maybe we would have "eventually" ate that fruit but only after we had developed some other factors that would allow us to process it better.

    Again, the story is highly symbolic.

    I am still looking for a tree of super strength.... LOL!

  • PSacramento

    If there is one thing God knows, it's free will.

    Free to do good and free to do evil and free to do everything inbetween.

    Accepting assuming responsibility for our own actions it seems, LOL! ;)

  • AGuest

    I do marvel, dear CL (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!)... that many of the parents here try to act like they wouldn't do the exact same thing if they had a "grown" child do what Adam/Eve did. I think the TRUTH is that they would not hesitate to turn such child... and his wife... out under such circumstances:

    "Hey, look, you guys had it GOOD here! I didn't charge you rent, your food and utilities were free, just open the fridge/cabinet and take what you want... all that you want... and don't worry about the laundry. I mean, you didn't even have to wear clothes and who needed a towel? I didn't hide the key to liquor cabinet, heck, it doesn't even have a lock! I even gave you the keys to the car! No, wait... I even told you to go right on and have sex... right here in my house. And not only would I have covered the bill when she got pregnant... I would have made it painless for her!

    The ONLY thing I asked you two NOT to do was go into the gun closet. Because I knew you could get hurt, if not immediately killed.

    But... you guys did. She listened to the lies of the butler (who is SO fired! I kicked his butt out a couple hours ago... AFTER I took back the prosthetic legs I bought him! So, he left here in his old beatup wheelchair!)... but YOU knew he was lying! And now, not only has your little dingbat wife shot herself... and so is going to die at some point... but YOU, big man, thought you could play "russian roulette" and WIN! And so you just put the dang gun to your head and pulled the trigger! All because she didn't drop dead right then and there! God, what were you THINKING?! Of course, you weren't... which is why I had to think FOR you! And now you're "genius" butt is going to die, too... 'cause although that bullet just missed your cortex... it will make its way there eventually and then "lights out." But as if that wasn't bad enough, to add insult to the injury, you're trying to blame her... and ME... for YOUR stoopid knuckle-headedness?! Seriously?

    Well, I'm sorry, son, but I think it's time you grow up and learn just what the world can really be like. Obviously, you can't be trusted to listen to me... oh, no, you know better than me - I'm just an old coot, right, who really knows nothing? Yeah, I heard you and the butler talking. And you certainly can't be trusted around guns. Well, I'm not about to get rid of mine just because you're hard-headed. And don't even think about going back in THAT closet EVER again - I changed the locks: yep, bought a couple of Cherub Sentinels and even YOU can't pick those!

    But I think it's time you two just went out on your own; you know, got your own place. 'Cause you're grown, right, and should be able to make your own decisions? Well, I agree - you should. Well, yeah, duh, you're gonna have to pay your own rent and utilities, now, and buy food... well, since neither of you have jobs, grow food... which means you have to take care of the yard (and I can't wait to see how you manage that since you've never had to lift a finger in this house). Oh, but not only will you have to wear clothes ('cause you can't walk around buck naked out there, Einstein, especially now that you know you're naked!)... you will have bath!! Yep, you two are gonna have to drag your butts right on down to the Euphrates every so often and wash them long garments of skin I gave you this morning. So, you'll need to learn how to make soap, too, and that's some hard work - making lye and all! And you'll have to do laundry, 'cause of course you're gonna need towels to dry the skins off. So you'd better take a stick with you. Nothing to it: rub with some soap... scrape against the rocks... beat with the stick... oh, yeah, you two'll get the hang of it real quick!

    And I'm not covering your healthcare: I mean, you're a man, right? Can make your own decisions, now? Well, then, she's your wife - you take care of her. But I promise you, she's gonna be pregnant soon... and THAT'S gonna hurt! Both physically AND financially. What? She won't get pregnant? Oh, please... Seriously? You're gonna what? Abstain?! BWAAAHHHHHHHH! Well, son, it's either her... or the livestock (although, I haven't decided, yet, whether I'm gonna let you take any of them with you; we'll see). But I know you. I mean, I know you've got a block of wood between your ears and all but if you expect me to think that you're gonna choose mutton over muff... oh, puh-leeze, son. I been around a LONG, LONG time... and I know you! Look at what you put me through to even let you GET married! Mark my words: she'll be pregnant within weeks... and you'll have a couple of kids within the next year or two. And THEN you'll find out what it's like to be father - one of them is going to be a blockhead just like you... and give you and her so much grief it'll make you head spin!

    Yep, given what the two of you know... or should I say, don't know... and can afford (which is nothing, right now)... life's about to get real hard for you. You had it good, you did, but you obviously didn't appreciate that. So, let's see if you can do better outside of this house... you know, set up your own house "rules" and all... since you're so grown and should be allowed to make your own decisions. You the man, son - go to it!"

    Of course, many who say they wouldn't treat their children in such a way probably don't have children over the age of... say... 12. Perhaps 14. So, we should just sit tight as to them - because the jury is still out. But there are also probably some rather "doormat-y" parents who wouldn't take such a tack regardless. I know some of them... and they're paying for it right now... and if not now, most probably will at some point in the future.

    Ah, well...

    Again, peace to you, my dear sister!

    YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,


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