by Nobleheart 34 Replies latest jw friends
@ Billy
Thanks for your information as well. I had read somewhere that 607 and 1914 came from the measurements of the Pyramids (crazy isn't it), so it's another strong point in contradicting these dates. I don't know about the book of Daniel being myth or not. I've always been open-minded as a JW and once read a book, which pointed that Daniel's book was written much later than what we think. But that's another story.
Hi Nobleheart. Welcome to the forum.
For 607, sit yourself down with a pencil and paper and draw yourself a list of years for the Neo-Babylonian empire showing which king reigned in each year. Write down your sources so that you can easily go back and check. Check the quality of your sources.
Every calculation that the WT uses to arrive at 607 contains at least one assumption. How good are those assumptions?
Don't talk to your family yet. You don't know how. We all think our families are reasonable, sane, loving people that we can talk openly to, but .....
..... when the WT was telling you how to identify the big, bad, scary apostate who has been led astray by Satan the Devil ....... they were all listening too .... and don't you ever forget it.
Cheers
Chris
I would like to help others too (mainly family members) by explaining them in clear and simple terms, whether what we've believed until now is true or false.
Your challenge will be to reach the "authentic personality" when speaking with your family. I would recommend Steve Hassan's first book, 'Combatting Cult Mind Control' for tips on how to engage the authentic personality.
You will quickly learn that facts/data/reality have little to do with your family's strong convictions/beliefs. They will defend what they know is false if they are cornered with information contradictory/critical of the WT.
Welcome Nobleheart. It is good to hear that you are being cautious in your decisions.
Regarding the information, I invite people to comment on the accuracy and I make changes where necessary. Interestingly, JWs often send me emails saying it is all apostate lies, but when I ask for specific examples so that I can fix it they rarely respond.
There have been occasional, accidental misquotes, but by now most are accurate and can be verified with original sources.
A word of caution regarding some of the doctrinal conclusions I reach - they are just my opinion based on research I have done. I am not a scholar and do not set out to prove doctrine. The aim is simply to highlight errors in Watchtower doctrine and show why other religious groups can be equally sincere in feeling their doctrine is correct.
When you speak to your family it is important to be realistic in how effective you will be. Most people do not want their belief system confronted, and you will notice the eyes of your family glaze over at times as they stop listening to what you say and start mindlessly responding with rote Watchtower answers. That is usually a good signal to stop the conversation. In the long run it will be more effective to keep the lines of communication open with your family by not pushing the point, so that you do not become labelled an apostate.
Welcome.
For historical publications go to:
http://www.archive.org/details/WatchTowerBibleandTractSocietyofPennsylvaniaWatchTowerpubs_0
Regarding the ever important 607 vs 587 issue, it is a question of whether the Bible claims that the 70 years were a Jewish timeframe (beginning with the destruction of the Temple) or the Babylonian timeframe for the domination of other nations (from their rise over Assyria in 609 BCE to their end in 539 BCE). Keep investigating, you'll find the answer in the Bible.
In my experience, when you get the glazed eyes, you have gone too far.
You need to get your point across in as few words as possible and then shut up. Don't ever talk about another religious topic that day. They have to think about that one. Make it a good one.
Don't try to tell them anything. You were trained not to listen. So were they.
You were all taught that you had all the answers, so ask a question in such a way that they really want to answer you, then shut up. Don't let them rephrase the question before they answer it. The primary defence is to change the subject.
Whenever a JW answers your question, ask yourself, before you reply, did they really answer my question? They usually haven't. Don't let them get away with it. Act offended that they should use whatever tactic they just tried on you, their friend, father, son, daughter whatever. Take control. Restate your question.
If they make a statement that you know is untrue, put pressure on them to prove it. If you know of a WT article that contradicts them, make them read it to you and explain it to you. You keep your mouth shut. Make them do the talking.
You don't have to 'win'. You only have to make them think.
Cheers
Chris
Great points Chris.
I was never a witness and there's just so much I don't know. I can offer something, however. I checked what former witnesses said about the Watchtower, in several languages. I won't say how many. All the stories are similar. Nothing I have found has ever contradicted what JWFacts has on his website.
I'm really happy for all the feedback. Personally I started to awake after a friend told me about the UN involvement. Also someone in service had a book (wish I'd gotten the title now) about all the false prophecies. I was unable to answer her satisfactorily, and the other sister was quite 'stumbled' by what she heard. When I asked an elder at my cong. about the false prophecies (how I could return and provide answers), he said the predictions were indeed false and if someone was exposed to that info, I'd better not return there at all.
@jwfacts - I was made aware only be another poster above that you were posting here. As a JW I really like your site, because it's clear and to the point. Not everyone has the time to read 100s of pages, yours is a condensed review. I'd like to thank you for bringing out so many things that I'm sure bother many JW around the world. And for being modest and open to updates. I haven't found anything inaccurate so far. I only wish other JW would look at facts in an objective manner.
@leavingwt - Thanks for the recommended book. I should really start ordering book online. On a side note, I read your DA letter on one of my first days in this board, and it blew my mind. The logic of your arguments made sense. I was moved by it.
@ Black sheep - You're probably right about not opening up to my family yet. I guess it depends on whether they want it to be the "truth" or accepting facts for what they are. But I'm willing to take your advice and not ruin my chances. I know I still need to convince myself of a number of things. I'll do the list of kings, it's a good idea.
@ Ultimate Reality - Thanks for the link. I'll keep investigating. For one, I cannot teach others things I'm not even sure of myself.
Hey Ultimate Reality,
That looks like an excellent set of links. Thanks. Worth repeating.
http://www.archive.org/details/WatchTowerBibleandTractSocietyofPennsylvaniaWatchTowerpubs_0
