And JW stuff made you want to scream: Pope's new book

by simon17 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • simon17
    simon17

    THis article is kinda ridiculous with all the things the Pope is saying, trying to save face like a bad politician. How does any of these answers make sense when you think of someone as God's spokesman. It almost made the GB seem a little less ridiculous for a moment:

    http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/11/20/pope-oks-condoms-in-some-cases-cites-use-by-male-prostitutes-av/?icid=main|aim|dl1|sec3_lnk2|185424

    * How can you say condoms are ok in the case of prostitutes. Does that make any sense? Don't they condemn prostitutes? WHy not just say they're morally wrong for Catholics since a Catholic shouldn't be a friggin prostitute!

    * I love his defense of pardoning the scum-bag Holocaust denier: "Its not like anyone looked on the Internet to see what kind a men these were". WTF!?! God's spokesman on earth a) needs the internet to figure out who to pardon and b) doesn't even know how to use it lol.

    * Gay people aren't eligible to be priests.... But if you are already a gay priest, don't say anything. How does that make any sense!?!

    Maybe there's more ridiculous stuff in there but i had to stop reading. Sometimes it seems like religion is more of a racket that at other times.

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    Yes, the Catholic church is full of its own stupid and inconsistent beliefs. At least they don't impose that everyone must abide by and teach their erroneous viewpoints under threats of getting cut off from family members or going to hell. And, if you feel like leaving the Catholic church and later want to return, you can do so without much trouble. Try that with the witlesses.

  • MarcusScriptus
    MarcusScriptus

    True, the Catholic Church has its problems. Not even Catholics deny that.

    But the way you present the information in your post is a little too familiar to the way the Watchtower condemns others. Are you responding to the book itself or did the little bit you read from the media supply you with enough information to speak authoritatively on the subject?

    One has to keep in mind that anti-Catholicism is allowed in our culture, even in the media. Anti-Semitism is a little bit more controlled these days (though it still happens), and people are finally raising their voice to stop anti-homosexual rhetoric. But how often do we notice that the media gets things wrong when it comes to Roman Catholicism?

    In fact, the Pope didn’t “o.k.” condoms in this instance anymore than he ever said condoms can’t medically stop the spread of HIV. But the news reports both incidents this way because, well, who wants to read the Pope gives theological examples of what theoretically illustrates how to use moral guidelines prudently in respects to condom use? Or really wants to read that the Pope was only replying to a question regarding condoms being a panacea for the AIDS pandemic in Africa? Neither are exciting news.

    In Catholicism, unlike the Witnesses, unless a teaching is a dogma, moral objectives are subject to the variables in which they are subjected to in human affairs. While “no-contraception” is a moral objective of virtue, there are situations in human affairs in which a contraceptive device or medication could actually be put to the use of a moral good. These are never ordinary circumstances, however. The Pope merely mentions one to give an example how this is applied. But since people generally don’t know how Catholics apply moral doctrines and the difference between their obeying dogma and applying moral objectives they thus become an easy target for a world that is always looking for a new “scapegoat.”

    We don’t seem to do well without someone or something to hate in this world, without a "them" that we can view as being against "us."

    Also, it’s never been proven that the anti-Catholic stories about the papal figure that is under consideration for canonization was an anti-Semite. Though he did not make any formal pronouncements against Hitler, he did hide many Jews within the Vatican state and, reportedly, within the Vatican itself. He didn’t show vocal support either for Hitler. Could it be he was being silent to avoid drawing attention to the fact that he was hiding so many Jewish people to save them from death in the concentration camps? It might not matter to you, but it matters to those people and their children and grandchildren who are glad he did. Would you feel the same way about him if you were one of those children whose parents or grandparents had been thus hidden by this pope?

    Finally, the Catholic Church uses the term “gay” sparingly. It is different from their use of the term “homosexual.” In Catholic terms a person who is “gay” is both sexually active as a homosexual and part of the gay movement, often a visible part of the gay community. Men who are thus a part of this lifestyle (not meaning those with just the sexual orientation) are not permitted to take part in the Roman Catholic priesthood. And, because media tends to mix the terms up and does not understand they mean different things to Catholics, the Church has advised that those men with a homosexual orientation who are ordained but are faithful to their vows do not need to come forward and expose themselves as if they are anything different from their heterosexual fellow priests in the ministry.

    But to put it the way you do, I agree with you that it does sound horrible. But is it just a way you are reporting it and am I sugar coating it the way I am mentioning it?

    Just a few more things to show what I am trying to illustrate:

    1. The Pope is reported as saying “NO CONDOMS WHATSOEVER.” The people say: “BOO!”

    2. The Pope is reported as saying “CONDOMS IN SOME SITUATIONS.” The people say: “BOO!”

    3. The pope of the Hitler era is criticized for not speaking outwardly against Hitler. The people say: “BOO!”

    4. If that pope had said something and Hitler had attacked the Vatican state, all those Jews that the pope was hiding there would have been discovered. If the pope’s actions back then had revealed the hiding Jews, what would people be acting like toward that pope? “BOO!”

    5. The current Pope says if those who are heavily engaged in the gay world and gay sex should not be priests. Again we hear: “BOO!”

    6. The Pope tells those priests in the ministry who are homosexual that there is no need to consider themselves any different with a need to reveal themselves as long as they remain faithful to their calling. Again: “BOO!”

    We boo the Pope for allowing men who had a thing for boys to remain in the priesthood. We boo when he tries various ways to stop it. We boo when he says YES and we boo when he says NO.

    The Pope can’t seem to win. This is odd.

    I’m not saying we should all become cheery Bambi-eyed fans of the Vatican, but I do think a lot of us have more prejudice and bigotry in places and toward people than we realize. A lot of this may be old Watchtower rhetoric that we just did not get rid of. When we hate somebody and something regardless of what they do, then it may not, I STRESS, may not be their actions we hate. We may be hating them.

    And if we hate somebody, regardless if they do good or bad, then isn’t that bigotry? Isn’t that being prejudiced?

    We won’t stand for it when someone says something like this about Jews or gays, but lately it seems to be okay to say things just as bad as long as it is about the Pope or Catholics.

    Again, I'm not saying the Catholic Church doesn't have sins it has to answer for. But again I ask: Have you read the entire book yourself and you are here RESPONDING to it or are you just REACTING to the media as if what tidbits you got from these reports give sufficient data to come to an objective conclusion?

  • designs
    designs

    Is it prejudice to say the Pontiff dresses funny (Flood pants, what couldn't find a good tailor in Italy) and seems woefully antiquated..........

  • MarcusScriptus
    MarcusScriptus

    No. That's fashion commentary. Kinda like they do on the red carpet before award shows. That's totally cool.

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    All religion is horseshit!

  • simon17
    simon17

    MarcusScriptures:

    But the way you present the information in your post is a little too familiar to the way the Watchtower condemns others

    And how is that? Most condemnations are about the same. The WT's are particularly egregious because they condemn things that they are guilty of doing. I've never claimed to speak for god or have his spirit, so it is hardly the same. I think anyone speaking for God and sounding exactly like what any imperfect man would try to say deserves to be called out.

    Are you responding to the book itself or did the little bit you read from the media supply you with enough information to speak authoritatively on the subject?

    Well, no one has read the book since it comes out later this week. I am responding to actual quotes of the Pope which seem very clear in their meaning. If it was somehow manipulated to be out of context, I'll take it back, but the quotes seem pretty clear.

    One has to keep in mind that anti-Catholicism is allowed in our culture

    Its not anti-catholic to say what the Pope is saying is ridiculous. I have no quarrel with Catholics. The mantra of "do whatever the *&!$ you want, just don't let it get back to us" seems like a nice way to go.

    1. The Pope is reported as saying “NO CONDOMS WHATSOEVER.” The people say: “BOO!”

    2. The Pope is reported as saying “CONDOMS IN SOME SITUATIONS.” The people say: “BOO!”

    You are missing my point. The situation he used is regarding prostitutes. Thats like the GB being asked, "When is it advised to go to college" and them answering "if you're going to become a politician." That just doesn't make sense. A Catholic shouldn't be a prostitute so why cause confusion and use that as an example.

    Also, it’s never been proven that the anti-Catholic stories about the papal figure that is under consideration for canonization was an anti-Semite. Though he did not make any formal pronouncements against Hitler, he did hide many Jews within the Vatican state and, reportedly, within the Vatican itself. He didn’t show vocal support either for Hitler. Could it be he was being silent to avoid drawing attention to the fact that he was hiding so many Jewish people to save them from death in the concentration camps? It might not matter to you, but it matters to those people and their children and grandchildren who are glad he did. Would you feel the same way about him if you were one of those children whose parents or grandparents had been thus hidden by this pope?

    Then THAT paragraph should be the response, not "yeah if we had known about all these accusations we wouldn't have included him in this... its not like we know how to use the internet". If God is directing your actions and you believe they are right, then STICK BY THEM.

    But to put it the way you do, I agree with you that it does sound horrible. But is it just a way you are reporting it and am I sugar coating it the way I am mentioning it?

    I dont think his decision is horrible at all actually, even if it is exactly as I reported it. I may agree, I may disagree. My point is, its NOT the way that God's agent should ever be expected to give the answers. Its like when the WT is asked a Bible question and they use the word "evidently, probably, may, evidently, perhaps" 10x in 4 paragraphs. If you're god's agent then cut the crap and stick by your guns. Otherwise say "I have no idea what God would say, but here's my guess".

  • bluesapphire
    bluesapphire

    Simon, I think sometimes former JWs who have never been Catholic mistunderstand how Catholics view the Pope. The Pope is NOT God's "spokesman" in the sense the GB are to the dubs. That's why modern Catholics don't always listen to what the Pope says on things like birth control, abortion, etc. Because Catholics are not taught that the Pope somehow gets info from God's Holy Spirit and is behind the scenes revealing things through his spokesman and if you don't listen to him it's like not listening to God himself.

    I'm definitely not a Catholic apologist because I'm no fan of Benedict but in the things you cited, I have no issue with those. The Pope recently said some things you and I BOTH would agree with though and not sure you heard about it. He said that universal healthare is a right, not a privilege.

    If the Pope actually spread that through the Bishops to all Catholics (Including our friend, Burn the Ships), the Christians on the Left would finally be able to compete with the Party of NO!

  • designs
    designs

    Humanae Salutis

    Vatican II, everything started to change, slowly, but change. With the Watchtower Society the problem is they haven't even had their version of Vatican I.

  • MarcusScriptus
    MarcusScriptus

    The pope is not God’s agent, Simon. He is considered as Christ’s Vicar. There’s a difference. It’s like a deputy, not a sheriff.

    Bluesapphire is correct. Because many exJWs have been incorrectly taught by the Governing Body that Catholics believe that the pope is infallible that everything he says must be a doctrine or represents God’s view. This is not true.

    For example, do you know how many times there has been an infallible statement made by any pope according to Roman Catholicism? Over the past 2,000 years only 2 such infallible statements have ever been made. It is a rare occurrence.

    Unlike the Governing Body, a pope cannot make up new doctrine. A pope can only declare a present doctrine as dogma. In other words, if a certain Catholic doctrine becomes questioned that is essential to the Catholic faith, if after sufficient study it can be demonstrated that the Church at large believes it wholeheartedly and that the doctrine is such an essential earmark that the Catholic identity as Christ's body is at stake without full acceptance of the doctrine, then the pope can declare that the Catholic Church accepts that doctrine as dogma.

    But a pope cannot invent dogma. He can only declare that a doctrine is something thatthe Church at large does not question. Therefore the community of Catholics from that point forward does not allow new converts in that do not agree with what the Church has always taught and believed regarding this dogma, neither is the dogma any further allowed to be questioned without the possibility of being considered a heretic. The process can take centuries, and the last time it happened was in 1950.

    God does not direct the actions of a pope either. Popes can make mistakes. Again they are not infallible robots that the entire Church must obey. Even a Catholic’s own conscience must be obeyed over a pontiff if there is sufficient reason for the Catholic to believe that they should. Conscientious dissent is allowed over anything that is not a dogma of the faith, unlike dissent among Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    The current pontiff’s comments are neither a new teaching nor doctrine nor dogma. They are an illustration of how objective moral theology can be applied in a certain theoretical or exceptional situation. Neither the pontiff nor the Church at large advocates prostitution. In fact, what is not being highlighted is that the Pope is speaking in just the terms you mentioned, a hypothesis, his best guess.

    To prove the point I am making, you can see from this CNS commentary regarding this: http://cnsblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/21/vatican-spokesmans-statement-on-condoms/

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit