Im afraid Jesus is a myth taken from the Egyptian savior Horus

by foolsparadise 55 Replies latest jw friends

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    One example of divinities having sons from the womb of a mortal woman

    According to one myth, Dionysus is the son of the god Zeus and the mortal woman, Semele (daughter of Cadmus of Thebes). Semele is killed by Zeus' lightning bolts while Dionysus is still in her womb. Dionysus is rescued and undergoes a second birth from Zeus after developing in his thigh. Zeus then gives the infant to some nymphs to be raised. In another version, one with more explicit religious overtones, Dionysus, also referred to as Zagreus in this account, is the son of Zeus and Persephone , Queen of the Underworld. Hera gets the Titans to lure the infant with toys, and then they rip him to shreds eating everything but Zagreus' heart, which is saved by either Athena , Rhea , or Demeter . Zeus remakes his son from the heart and implants him in Semele who bears a new Dionysus Zagreus. Hence, as in the earlier account, Dionysus is called "twice born." The latter account formed a part of the Orphic religion's religious mythology.

    In regards to that video I wouldn't take the youngster's ( probably a student at Oral Roberts University) information in whole.

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    On the left is a bronze statue of Isis nursing Horus dating from the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt; on the right is a famous medieval icon of Mary and Jesus

  • designs
    designs

    Instead of Christmas we could all get our Pyramids out and celebrate Horusmas

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    Comparative mythology

    Further information: Comparative mythology and Christianity and Paganism

    Mythemes pointed to include sacral kingship and "theophagy", the eating of the body of a fertility god, traced by Walter Burkert to a neolithicfertility rite surrounding a god who needs to die and rise again in order to feed the community, sublimated in the Christian eucharist.

    Among the comparanda, observation of mere mythic universals or "archetypes" needs to be distinguished from claims of historical influence, or common historical origin. Only when features can be shown to be parallel in highly specific detail can a common origin be assumed. Otherwise, there is a danger of 'parallelomania', as Samuel Sandmel (1962) calls it, the excessive and superficial identification of what are really [ 2 ] . Thus, the comparison with other gods who die and are resurrected may be used to establish the status of a "mythic universal", but it is hardly sufficient to establish mutual influence.

    [edit] Dionysus and the Greek mysteries

    The Greek Eleusinian Mysteries were an initiation cult surrounding Demeter, her daughter Persephone, and the agricultural hero Triptolemus. The derived Hellenistic Orphic traditions syncretized Greek traditions with Egyptian and Mesopotamian elements. In the Orphic tradition, it is Dionysus who is killed and resurrected. Orphism puts strong emphasis on salvation in the afterlife. Orphism and Hermeticism strongly influenced Platonist mysticism which in turn was a formative influence on late antique Christian theology.

    The opening salvo of debates concerning mythological parallels between Dionysus and the figure of the Christ in Christian theology can be traced to Friedrich Hölderlin, whose identification of Dionysus with Christ is most explicit in Brod und Wein (1800–1801) and Der Einzige (1801–1803). [ 3 ] Modern scholars such as Martin Hengel, Barry Powell, and Peter Wick, among others, argue that Dionysian religion and Christianity have notable parallels.

    They point to the symbolism of wine and the importance it held in the mythology surrounding both Dionysus and Jesus Christ; [ 4 ] [ 5 ] though, Wick argues that the use of wine symbolism in the Gospel of John, including the story of the Marriage at Cana at which Jesus turns water into wine, was intended to show Jesus as superior to Dionysus. [ 6 ]

    Additionally, some scholars of comparative mythology argue that both Dionysus and Jesus represent the "dying-and-returning god" mythological archetype. [ 7 ] Other elements, such as the celebration by a ritual meal of bread and wine, also have parallels. [ 8 ] Powell, in particular, argues precursors to the Christian notion of transubstantiation can be found in Dionysian religion. [ 8 ]

    Another parallel can be seen in The Bacchae wherein Dionysus appears before King Pentheus on charges of claiming divinity is compared to the New Testament scene of Jesus being interrogated by Pontius Pilate. [ 9 ] [ 8 ] [ 6 ]

    E. Kessler in a symposium Pagan Monotheism in the Roman Empire, Exeter, 17-20 July 2006, argues that Dionysian cult had developed into strict monotheism by the 4th century CE; together with Mithraism and other sects the cult formed an instance of "pagan monotheism" in direct competition with Early Christianity during Late Antiquity. [ 10 ]

    [edit] Ancient Egypt

    Above is a statue of Isis, the wife and sister of Osiris, nursing their child Horus dating from the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt; "The iconography of Horus either influenced or was appropriated in early Christian art. Isis and the baby Horus may often be seen as precursor for Mary and the infant Jesus" [ 11 ] 15th century painting by Fra Filippo Lippi of the Madonna and child. See also: Horus, Osiris, and Isis

    Self-taught amateur Egyptologist Gerald Massey argued that the deity of Horus and Jesus shared identical mythological origins in his 1907 book Ancient Egypt, the light of the world. [ 12 ] His views have been repeated by theologian and Toronto Star columnist Tom Harpur, author Acharya S, and political comedian Bill Maher. [ 13 ] [ 14 ] [ 15 ] Theologian W. Ward Gasque composed an e-mail to twenty leading Egyptologists, including Professor Emeritus of Egyptology at the University of LiverpoolKenneth Kitchen, and Professor of Egyptology at the University of Toronto Ron Leprohan. The e-mail detailed the comparisons alleged by Massey which had been repeated by Harpur. The scholars were unanimous in dismissing any similarities suggested by Massey, and one Egyptologist criticized the comparison as "fringe nonsense." [ 16 ]

    To the right a 15th century painting by Fra Filippo Lippi of the Madonna. On the left Isis and Horus, the wife-sister and son of Osiris. "When Christianity was spreading across the Empire, it's clear that it deliberately took images from the pagan world in which it lived and into which it spread and used those images." [ 17 ]

    Egyptologist E. A. Wallis Budge suggests possible connections or parallels in Osiris' resurrection story with those found in Christianity:

    "The Egyptians of every period in which they are known to us believed that Osiris was of divine origin, that he suffered death and mutilation at the hands of the powers of evil, that after a great struggle with these powers he rose again, that he became henceforth the king of the underworld and judge of the dead, and that because he had conquered death the righteous also might conquer death...In Osiris the Christian Egyptians found the prototype of Christ, and in the pictures and statues of Isis suckling her son Horus, they perceived the prototypes of the Virgin Mary and her child." [ 18 ]

    Biblical scholar Bruce M. Metzger notes that in one account of the Osirian cycle he dies on the 17th of the month of Athyr (approximating to a month between October 28 and November 26 in modern calendars), is revivified on the 19th and compares this to Christ rising on the "third day" but thinks "resurrection" is a questionable description [ 19 ] . In contrast Christ Myth proponent George Albert Wells refers to Plutarch's account and asserts that Osiris dies and is mourned on the first day and that his resurrection is celebrated on the third day with the joyful cry "Osiris has been found". He also argues that St. Paul's comparison of bodily resurrection with a seed being planted, and corn then growing (1 Cor 15:35-38), is based on Ancient Egyptian concepts in which the germinating seeds in Osiris beds represent resurrection. [ 20 ]

    Osiris-Nepra, with wheat growing from his body. From a bas-relief at Philae. [ 21 ] The sprouting corn implied resurrection. [ 22 ]

    Plutarch and others have noted that the sacrifices to Osiris were “gloomy, solemn, and mournful...” (Isis and Osiris, 69) and that the great mystery festival, celebrated in two phases, began at Abydos on the 17th of Athyr [ 23 ] (November 13) commemorating the death of the god, which is also the same day that grain was planted in the ground. “The death of the grain and the death of the god were one and the same: the cereal was identified with the god who came from heaven; he was the bread by which man lives. The resurrection of the god symbolized the rebirth of the grain.” (Larson 17) The annual festival involved the construction of “Osiris Beds” formed in the shape of Osiris, filled with soil and sown with seed. [ 24 ] The germinating seed symbolized Osiris rising from the dead. An almost pristine example was found in the tomb of Tutankhamun by Howard Carter. [ 25 ]

    Osiris "The God Of The Resurrection", rising from his beir. [ 26 ]

    The first phase of the festival was a public drama depicting the murder and dismemberment of Osiris, the search of his body by Isis, his triumphal return as the resurrected god, and the battle in which Horus defeated Set. This was all presented by skilled actors as a literary history, and was the main method of recruiting cult membership. According to Julius Firmicus Maternus of the fourth century, this play was re-enacted each year by worshippers who “beat their breasts and gashed their shoulders.... When they pretend that the mutilated remains of the god have been found and rejoined...they turn from mourning to rejoicing.” (De Errore Profanorum).

    The passion of Osiris is reflected in his name 'Wenennefer" ("the one who continues to be perfect"), which also alludes to his post mortem power. [ 27 ]

    Parts of this Osirian mythology have prompted comparisons with later Christian beliefs and practices.

    Egyptologist Erik Hornung observes that Egyptian Christians continued to mummify corpses (an integral part of the Osirian beliefs) until it finally came to an end with the arrival of Islam and argues for an association between the passion of Jesus and Osirian traditions, particularly in the apocryphal gospel of Nicodemus and Christ's descent into Hades. He concludes that whilst Christianity rejected anything "pagan" it did so only at a superficial level and that early Christianity was "deeply indebted" to Ancient Egypt." [ 28 ]

    David J. MacLeod argues that the resurrection of Osiris differs from Jesus Christ, saying

    "Perhaps the only pagan god for whom there is a resurrection is the Egyptian Osiris. Close examination of this story shows that it is very different from Christ's resurrection. Osiris did not rise; he ruled in the abode of the dead. As biblical scholar, Roland de Vaux, wrote, 'What is meant of Osiris being "raised to life?" Simply that, thanks to the ministrations of Isis, he is able to lead a life beyond the tomb which is an almost perfect replica of earthly existence. But he will never again come among the living and will reign only over the dead. This revived god is in reality a "mummy" god.'... No, the mummified Osiris was hardly an inspiration for the resurrected Christ... As Yamauchi observes, 'Ordinary men aspired to identification with Osiris as one who had triumphed over death. But it is a mistake to equate the Egyptian view of the afterlife with the biblical doctrine of resurrection. To achieve immortality the Egyptian had to meet three conditions: First, his body had to be preserved by mummification. Second, nourishment was provided by the actual offering of daily bread and beer. Third, magical spells were interred with him. His body did not rise from the dead; rather elements of his personality - his Ba and Ka - continued to hover over his body.'" [ 29 ]

    A. J. M. Wedderburn further argues that resurrection in Ancient Egypt differs from the "very negative features" in Judaeo-Christian tradition, as the Ancient Egyptians conceived of the afterlife as entry into the glorious kingdom of Osiris. [ 30 ]

    Marvin Mayer notes that some scholars regard the idea of dying and rising deities in the mystery religions as being fanciful but suggests this may be motivated by apologetic concerns, attempting to keep Christ's resurrection as a unique event. In contrast he argues that the ancient story of dying and rising in the divine, human and crops, (with Osiris as an example), is vindicated and reaches a conclusion in Christianity. [ 31 ]

    [edit] Mother and child parallel

    On the left is a bronze statue of Isis nursing Horus dating from the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt; on the right is a famous medieval icon of Mary and Jesus

    Some believe that the close maternal relationship between Isis and Horus presented in ancient Egyptian imagery were incorporated into later Christian iconography. [ 16 ] [ 32 ] In particular, the depictions of Mary and Jesus from Our Lady of Perpetual Help and the Black Madonna of Czestochowa share many similarities to extant ancient Egyptian art depictions of Horus and Isis. [ 33 ] EgyptologistErik Hornung wrote that "There was an obvious analogy between the Horus child and the baby Jesus and the care they received from their sacred mothers; long before Christianity, Isis had borne the epithet 'mother of the god.'" [ 34 ]

    This is the result of early Christian exposure to Egyptian art. In a survey of "twenty leading Egyptologists" by Dr. W. Ward Gasque, a Christian scholar, found that all who responded recognised "that the image of the baby Horus and Isis has influenced the Christian iconography of Madonna and Child" but that there were no other similarities, e.g. no evidence that Horus was born of a virgin, had twelve followers, etc. [ 35 ]

    [edit] Child deities

    [ 36 ] Shed is an Ancient Egyptian deity, popularly called, 'the savior' and is first recorded after the Amarna Period. [ 37 ] Representing the concept of salvation he is identified with Horus and in particular "Horus the Child". [ 38 ] Rather than have formal worship in a temple or as an official cult, he appears to have been a god that ordinary Egyptians looked to save them from illness, misfortune or danger. [ 39 ] He is shown on the Metternich Stela as vanquishing danger in the form of a serpent, a scorpion and a crocodile. [ 40 ]

    The rise of "Savior" names in personal piety during the Amarna period has been interpreted as the popular response of ordinary people to the attempts by Akhenaten to proscribe the ancient religion of Egypt. Shed has also been viewed as a form of the ancient Semitic god Reshef. [ 41 ] Shed can be depicted as a young prince overcoming snakes, lions and crocodiles. [ 42 ]

    Shed has been viewed as a form of savior, a helper for those in need when state authority or the Kings help is wanting. The increased reliance on divine assistance could even extend to saving a person from the underworld, even to providing a substitute, and lengthening a person's time in this world. In the New Kingdom Shed "the savior" is addressed on countless stelae by people searching or praising him for help. [ 43 ]

  • Awakened at Gilead
    Awakened at Gilead

    Stop ridiculing!!!!!!

    Dionysius is not a myth. And he's upset that you all are questioning his authenticity by comparing him to that later fraud, cooked up by radical Jews, called Jesus. Drink wine, be merry, and do not doubt!

  • Awakened at Gilead
    Awakened at Gilead

    Jesus has always been seen as a positive force and associated with light, as opposed to darkness.

    Tell that to the muslims killed during the crusades and the witches burned during the inquisition. Christianity has a bloody history.

  • poopsiecakes
    poopsiecakes

    Dionysius is not a myth. And he's upset that you all are questioning his authenticity by comparing him to that later fraud, cooked up by radical Jews, called Jesus. Drink wine, be merry, and do not doubt!

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    There does appear to be a comparative correlation with ancient Egyptian beliefs and the later Hebrew/Christian beliefs.

    Can anyone truthfully deny that.

    In that era of human history Gods and demi-gods gave answers to world that which there was very little knowledge of.

    On that premise can you fault ancient civilizations for attaching themselves to god worship, I don't think so.

    Through the progression of human knowledge of the world we live as the ancients did, the worship of gods has become futilely redundant.

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR
    Tell that to the muslims killed during the crusades and the witches burned during the inquisition. Christianity has a bloody history.

    It is true that Christianity has a bloody history, full of crusades and killing, as do most mainstream religions. Though not a Christian myself, I am able to separate the acts performed in the name of Christ, from Christians in the present time.

    While not wishing to be an apologist for Christians, a sincere attempt to live by the gentler aspects of Christ's original message can improve peoples lives.

  • tec
    tec

    Tell that to the muslims killed during the crusades and the witches burned during the inquisition. Christianity has a bloody history.

    Yes, it does. But none of those things even remotely follows the teachings and example of the Christ they were supposedly following. War is war, yes, but to be fighting/torturing/killing in the name of Christ is a tradition of men... not of Christ.

    Believing - I loved your summary. Well said.

    Tammy

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