Talked to hubby about Jesus being the Mediator for only 144,000 he said it made total sense

by life is to short 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • life is to short
    life is to short

    OK so my husband and I sat down and I told him that I never totally got it that we as Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus died only for the 144,000. I showed him 1 Tim 2:5, John 6:40, John 20:31, Gal 1:4, Gal 2:20 where it clearly says he died for everyone.

    He said Jesus died because we need a new covenant and he gave me Jeremiah 31:31 then he went to Heb 8:6-9 where we need a new covenant and the ended at Luke 22:28 where Jesus is talking to his disciples and they were part of the 144,000 so clearly Jesus was meaning the new covenant was intended for the 144,000. Jesus did give is life clearly for all of us as long as we are in contact with his chosen 144,000. If we ever stop believing in the anointed we are toast.

    Now my husband has been in the "truth" since 1972 and was an elder for 32 years. He is in no way stupid when it comes to the teaching of the JW's. I am 17 years younger then he is and was raised in the "truth" or how I just hate that word but anywho I never got that Jesus did not die for me all my time growing up it just went over my heard now I am still just blown away by it all.

    I feel like BroDan where he said he just wishes he could go to sleep and never wakeup. It is so hard being in this religion.

    LITS

  • life is to short
    life is to short

    Again sorry about my stupid spelling

  • sir82
    sir82

    JWs make a distinction between "Jesus dying as a ransom" and "the new covenant". To JWs they are 2 completely different (although related) things.

    They teach that Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. Period. The new covenant applies to the 144,000. Period.

    On a related but completely different note, they teach that Jesus died as a ransom for all faithful mankind. These non-144,000 benefit from that "new covenant", but are not part of of it.

    I know, I know, it's all a lot of theological hand-waving, and has nothing to do with the Bible's message, but it is at least internally consistent.

  • life is to short
    life is to short

    sir82

    I understand what you just wrote and in the back of my mind that is how I lived all these years with this belief. I just accepted it but when you look at it on paper it is scary in the fact that it means you have to follow the 144,000 to have everlasting life. Well who knows for sure who are the chosen anointed are now? They tell us that they are the GB but where is the proof? Where has Jehovah shown us that Samuel Herd, Ted Jaracz, David Splane, etc are his chosen ones. They tell us by pointing to Matt 24:45 so. So we have to follow these men who say that Jehovah has given them the sign that they are chosen and we are not to question that?

    I mean how truly scary is all of this???????????

    sir82 I hope I did not come off as upset with you in the least I am not just blown away by it all. I loved where you said I know, I know, it's all a lot of theological hand-waving, and has nothing to do with the Bible's message, but it is at least internally consistent.

    It is truly crazy making.

    LITS

  • blondie
    blondie

    Can you think of some concepts the WTS uses out of context scriptures to explain?

    How about that Jesus is the mediator only for spirit-anointed Christians (jws) despite that the WTS applies 1 Timothy 2:5 as being about Jesus acting as mediator regarding prayer between all humans and God?

    Is there anything that says that the ones praying are only spirit-anointed jws? Where is there any mention of a new covenant?

    *** What do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe br78 p. 13 What do They Believe? ***Prayers must be directed only to Jehovah through Christ John 14:6, 13, 14; 1 Tim. 2:5

    *** w66 8/1 p. 465 par. 16 Baptism Shows Faith ***Of special interest to one wishing to make his dedication to God is the act of faith known as prayer. When one makes his dedication he prays to Jehovah in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son, the Mediator between God and man.

    *** w57 12/15 p. 747 "Confess Your Sins" ***The overseer does not presume to take the role of God, nor to be the mediator between God and men. Rather, as a loving Christian brother, he approaches God in prayer along with the spiritually sick one, doing so through the one Mediator Christ Jesus, and faithfully pointing out Jehovah’s loving provision for forgiveness.

    *** g74 1/8 p. 10 What Do You Know About Prayer? ***To be acceptable to God, prayers must be through the channel he recognizes. Jesus said: "No one comes to the Father except through me." Jesus also said prayers should be presented ‘in his name.’ (John 14:6; 16:23) Thus, our prayers should acknowledge that the value of the sacrifice of Jesus’ own human life makes it possible for us to approach God in prayer, and that there is just "one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus."—1 Tim. 2:5.

  • Gordy
    Gordy

    Try this way of looking at it.

    The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only 144,000 people are in the New Covenant. What does the Bible say? Galatians 4:22-31 mentions how Abraham had two sons, one by Hagar the bondwoman and another by Sarah the free woman. These sons being Ishmael and Isaac respectively. Verse 24 states clearly that these two women, "stand as symbolic drama, for these women mean two covenants." New World Translation, Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. Verses 24 & 25 tell us that Hagar symbolises the Old Law Covenant from Sinai, while in verses 26 & 27 Sarah stands for the New Covenant and the Jerusalem above our [i.e. the Christian's] mother. In verse 27, Paul quotes from Isaiah 54:1 where Jehovah God is married to the nation of Israel via the Law Covenant. Compare also Jeremiah 3:14, 31:32. Thus the barren or desolate woman which represents the New Covenant, has "many more children" [NKJV] or "more numerous" [NWT] than the woman who has the husband. The latter representing the old Law Covenant between Israel and Jehovah.

    It is evident that this old Law Covenant brought forth millions of children from the time of Moses to John the Baptist - Matthew 11:13. And we read here that the New Covenant would bring forth many more than this; yes they would be "more numerous" as the NWT puts it. The New Covenant would comprise Jews and Gentiles, without any distinction, see Romans 3:22. Thus, it can be easily and Scripturally demonstrated that the New Covenant is made with millions of persons, and not just 144,000 as is taught by the Watchtower Society of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  • Ding
    Ding

    LITS,

    Your husband sounds like a lot of JWs I know who seem to have Watchtowers instead of eyeballs.

    You show them something and they can't see it at all.

    I think it's a form of spiritual blindness.

    You might ask your husband about John 6:53-56.

    Don't try to teach him anything.

    Keep asking questions.

    When he gives you a nonsensical WT answer, tell him you're sorry but you just don't understand....

    Leave it there.

    Pray (silently!) for God to open his eyes.

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    ended at Luke 22:28 where Jesus is talking to his disciples and they were part of the 144,000 so clearly Jesus was meaning the new covenant was intended for the 144,000

    That conclusion is not clear at all. It doesn't follow logically in any way whatsoever.

    Here's how the flawed logic works (or more correctly, does NOT work):

    Jack walks into his fraternity house where 12 of his friends are sitting around watching the ballgame. Jack says, "I am having a huge party at my parents' house this Saturday. Because you have been such great fraternity brothers, you're invited."

    Later that evening, Sam is out with his girlfriend. Her brother Mike and his girlfriend are there, too. He tells them, "Jack's having this huge party coming up on Saturday." "Awesome. What should we bring?" Mike asks. "Ooh, sorry dude. Jack only invited us 12 fraternity brothers. You can't come. Not even you, baby," he tells his girlfriend.

    Is Sam's understanding of Jack's party accurate? Did Jack intend to limit his "huge party" to just the 12 guys who were in the room at that one time? Does it make sense that he would describe his party as "huge" if he was only going to have 12 people there, that limited group of guys only?

  • Soldier77
    Soldier77

    I'm sorry talking sense into your husband is sounding futile, but I honestly stopped reading when you said you are 17 years YOUNGER than your husband. Nothing against it at all, just daaaamn, talk about a generation gap (not WTS definition of generation) how do you do it! Because I want a 18 yr old wife! That would be 15 years younger. Please give advice!

    Okay, back on topic, that is one of my biggest doctrinal issues atm. Jesus says clearly in the scriptures that everyone goes to him to get to the father (summation), and then WTS teaches that R&F go through FDS (aka GB) to go to Jesus for us to get to God...

    What utter bullshit. Makes me sick to my stomach to hear all of this hypocrisy going on within.

  • Ultimate Reality
    Ultimate Reality

    I love how at one moment the NT is written to First Century contemporaries, and then, arbitrarily, it's written 'for our day' -- like 2 Tim 3.

    The Society's teaching about the mediator cannot be scripturally defended. Use the tactic they teach in Pioneer School -- make him defend his belief using the Bible beacuse his response is simply a mindless regurgitation of poorly thought-out WT 'reasoning' with unproven premises.

    The Watchtower of November 15, 1979, page 26, made this comment:

    “What, then, is Christ’s role in this program of salvation? Paul proceeds to say: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men [not, all men], a man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.”—1 Tim. 2:5, 6.

    The insertion "[not, all men]" is the Society blatantly changing the meaning of the Bible.

    This issue was raised in a 1989 Questions From Readers (w 8/15/89 p 30-31):

    “Is Jesus the Mediator only for spirit-anointed Christians or for all mankind, since 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 speaks of him as the “mediator” who “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all”?”

    The Watchtower answer to this question on the mediator centers on the following legal concept:

    “The Greek word me·si′tes, used for “mediator,” means ‘one who finds himself between two bodies or parties.’ It was a ‘many-sided technical term of Hellenistic legal language.’ Professor Albrecht Oepke (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament) says that me·si′tes was “one of the most varied technical terms in the vocabulary of Hellen[istic] law. ” (w 8/15/89 p 30-31)

    So, it is a "many-sided technical" term. But they never bother to define what it means! Nor do they cite the source.

    To put this 'legal word' non-sense to rest, here is how should we legally define the word mediator as used by Paul:

    “[Paul] calls him the mediator, the mesities. Mesities comes from mesos, which, in this case, means in the middle. A mesities is, therefore, one who stands in the middle between two people and brings them together. When Job is desperately anxious that somehow he should be able to put his case to God, he cries out hopelessly: 'There is no umpire [mesities] between us' (Job 9:33). Paul calls Moses the mesities (Galations 3;19) in that he was the one between, who brought the law from God to the people. In Athens in classical times, there was a body of men - all citizens in their sixtieth year - who could be called upon to act as mediators when there was a dispute between two citizens, and their first duty was to bring about a reconciliation. In Rome, there were arbitri. The judge settled points of law; but the arbitri settled matters of what was fair and just; and it was their duty to bring disputes to an end. Further, in legal Greek, a mesities was a sponsor, a guarantor or a surety. He put up a bail for a friend who was on trial; he guaranteed a debt or an overdraft. The mesities was someone who was willing to pay a friend's debt to make things right again.”

    - William Barclay (1907-1978), Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism Glasgow University in Scotland, Letter to the Hebrews, p. 106.

    So, according to Paul, did Jesus -- as a mesities -- only 'bail out' a small, limited number of people? Is the payment of the 'debt of sin' only applied to the 144,000?

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